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Old 10-23-2012, 04:13 PM   #376
themuppets
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

LOL, well, I'm def no big deal and what experience I do have is not on the same level that these decisions were made at, so perhaps you're right. I never really meant to get so hung up on that aspect of the debate but for some reason MR got the best of me.
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Old 10-23-2012, 04:44 PM   #377
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Re: Will Part 7 of Diamondflush's Series Deliver the Goods or Be a Disappontment?

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Originally Posted by MicroRoller View Post
I'm hoping at some point we get to hear more sides of the story. After the Lederer Files first came out John Juanda was tweeting a bunch of stuff but got quiet after he started being harassed and called a thief by some people including ZBTHorton (also of SubjectPoker). Hopefully in the future we can hear directly from more insiders and get to draw our own conclusions.
Agree. In particular, I would love to hear from Phil Gordon's team. Howard indicates PG was desperate enough that he was sending demand letters for insolvency/ bankruptcy. The assumption is that this would not have led to the players being paid because somehow HL kept things afloat. My view is that it just delayed the stars deal that was always there. There is no reason, except legal exposure for the board, that an asset strip and sale via the DOJ that included player repayment could not have been initiated two summers ago.

I think some signaling from Stars (DN perhaps,) that others need to speak if they want a healthy Stars relationship going forward could be very helpful in this regard.

(Nitpick: Micro please stop saying DF did not catch Howard in a lie, see previous posts of mine and others. This is small bore. The company was constructed to protect Howard's lies, and there is no perjury charge at play here. The truth of his own words is plenty to show the lies.)
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Old 10-23-2012, 04:48 PM   #378
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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LOL, well, I'm def no big deal and what experience I do have is not on the same level that these decisions were made at, so perhaps you're right. I never really meant to get so hung up on that aspect of the debate but for some reason MR got the best of me.
Oh jeez, now you got me feeling like a douche again. I am new to 2+2, hence the vacillation between dick and nice guy. Guess I need to clarify my persona.
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Old 10-23-2012, 04:50 PM   #379
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

welcome to 2p2 imo
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Old 10-23-2012, 05:41 PM   #380
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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Even according to Lederer, Bitar continued to steal over $2mill from the company post black friday when he agreed to reduce his salary to $70k/mo but instead continued to receive $200k+/mo.
IIRC HL said he thought 70k/month would be reasonable but Bitar continued to pay himself 200k. I don't think HL said Bitar stole and I don't think Bitar ever agreed to 70k.

As many here, I don't have the time/am too lazy to go back and double check.

This is a good example of how easily we all can mix up facts with our own speculation and I appreciate that DF is taking the time to write her articles. So far there was certainly material I have never read before (I think in #4 and #5) but there was also material I had forgotten about (e.g. Ferguson accounts) and where here articles pointed out things I would have missed otherwise.
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Old 10-23-2012, 06:05 PM   #381
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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IIRC HL said he thought 70k/month would be reasonable but Bitar continued to pay himself 200k. I don't think HL said Bitar stole and I don't think Bitar ever agreed to 70k.

As many here, I don't have the time/am too lazy to go back and double check.

This is a good example of how easily we all can mix up facts with our own speculation and I appreciate that DF is taking the time to write her articles. So far there was certainly material I have never read before (I think in #4 and #5) but there was also material I had forgotten about (e.g. Ferguson accounts) and where here articles pointed out things I would have missed otherwise.
From what I remember he didn't say 70k would be reasonable, but that he very reluctantly agreed to Ray paying himself 70k a month then found out latter that he paid himself 200k a month.

It's not clear how long he kept getting paid 200k a month for.
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Old 10-23-2012, 06:29 PM   #382
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Re: Will Part 7 of Diamondflush's Series Deliver the Goods or Be a Disappontment?

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(Nitpick: Micro please stop saying DF did not catch Howard in a lie, see previous posts of mine and others. This is small bore. The company was constructed to protect Howard's lies, and there is no perjury charge at play here. The truth of his own words is plenty to show the lies.)
I think there are enough contradictions in what Lederer has said to understand he's lying about certain things. I believe Lederer deserves a lot more than to have someone say "that's not what I heard" which is what DF has basically said so far. Hopefully a time comes when someone can say that in a more appropriate setting.
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Old 10-23-2012, 08:52 PM   #383
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Re: Will Part 7 of Diamondflush's Series Deliver the Goods or Be a Disappontment?

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Is it supposed to be a 7 part series again? I am forgetting if I saw that somewhere...
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I hope that all the waiting and curiosity will be rewarded with new information and insight, but I have to admit I am more than a little pessimistic that will happen. What do you all think?
It is my understanding that the series will have eight or more parts. There will be one part for each of the seven parts of "The Lederer Files" and then at least one more part to sum up with analysis and conclusions about the distortion of truth. (Please note that "distortion of the truth" might not mean outright lies, so much as misdirection and incompleteness. As for "new information", there has already been more than I expected, and I don't recall any being promised. IMO, some people are thinking that DF promised more than she actually promised. IOW they over-hyped themselves.
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Old 10-23-2012, 10:22 PM   #384
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Re: Will Part 7 of Diamondflush's Series Deliver the Goods or Be a Disappontment?

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Tamiller and 1938ford: could you two please find some other aspect of this to disagree on, or at least discuss? I've found your discussions with each other to be the most fun and informative parts of this thread...
thanks!
Thanks, I think, but I've come to the conclusion that these blogs are intended for an audience that might have watched the Lederer Files not knowing that he had distorted the truth, and not being a member of that audience, I've lost interest.

Bill Rini and others documented how implausible Howard's version of events was more than a month ago now, and guys like MicroRoller and DoTheMath put more writing effort into a single forum post than all six parts of this series would have required.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who have not followed every article, court document and podcast about FTP since BF, who can't scroll down fast enough when they see a "TL;DR" wall of text on these forums that made the same speculative assumptions she does in her blogs, and for those people this series will be more than worth the wait.
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Old 10-25-2012, 04:09 AM   #385
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I got a funny feeling part 7 is going to be titled Part 7a...and the good stuff will come in part 7h or so in another couple months or so.
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Old 10-25-2012, 04:53 AM   #386
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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I got a funny feeling part 7 is going to be titled Part 7a...and the good stuff will come in part 7h or so in another couple months or so.
Meh, go easy on DF here. It is a public service she is doing. With that said, I obviously understand why everyone has basically no patience left for all things FTP these days and so I get why people just want to have concrete dates for once. It's not her fault, but it is reality.
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Old 10-26-2012, 01:36 PM   #387
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

So.... Part 7? One week and still no article that ties everything together " and explains the significance" of all the other parts we spent time waiting for and reading.
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Old 10-28-2012, 03:27 AM   #388
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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So.... Part 7? One week and still no article that ties everything together " and explains the significance" of all the other parts we spent time waiting for and reading.
To be fair, there is a lot of pressure on the remaining articles and she hasn't promised any timeline.
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Old 10-28-2012, 06:05 AM   #389
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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To be fair, there is a lot of pressure on the remaining articles and she hasn't promised any timeline.
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My interview with Howard Lederer wonít be happening. He advised that his decision was final. In that regard, I found so many unanswered questions, so many questions not asked, and so many inconsistencies with information that I had amassed from other sources over the last year, that I decided to print my commentary on his interviews. The articles that I publish in this feature over the next week will include that commentary. Also included will be facts that I have taken pains to confirm to be true, but that differ with Ledererís accounting of events. Some of these inconsistencies may seem small and trivial in the beginning, but in the end, they will paint a much different picture than whatís been presented to date. I ask the reader to withhold judgment until the full picture is painted. The community can then make itís own decision on which version of events is more likely to have happened.
She may not have promised, but she did indicate a much different timeline.
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Old 10-28-2012, 11:50 AM   #390
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

I hope part 7 is just:

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Old 10-28-2012, 12:03 PM   #391
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

If this has been covered in another FTP thread, I apologize and would appreciate if someone could point me in the right direction.

Where was the CFO while all this was going on? Howard talks about trying to generate some special report about cash on hand vs player deposits, but wouldn't that type of info be readily seen in even the most basic of financial reports? And when the seizures and stuff were happening, wouldn't that also have been documented/accounted for in the financials? Likewise, when the CEO/board talks about distributions, isn't the first thing the CFO supposed to do is look at the numbers and advise whether there is an appropriate amount of cash on hand to give a distribution?

I guess I don't understand how the growing shortfalls could "surprise" everyone as to how large they were. Was the CFO in on some type of cover up with Bitar? Did they actively "cook the books" that they showed to the other board members?

It seems all the attention (rightfully so) has focused on HL and RB, but was the CFO indicted or somehow held accountable for this total mismangement of money?

Thanks.
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Old 10-28-2012, 02:58 PM   #392
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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If this has been covered in another FTP thread, I apologize and would appreciate if someone could point me in the right direction.

Where was the CFO while all this was going on? Howard talks about trying to generate some special report about cash on hand vs player deposits, but wouldn't that type of info be readily seen in even the most basic of financial reports? And when the seizures and stuff were happening, wouldn't that also have been documented/accounted for in the financials? Likewise, when the CEO/board talks about distributions, isn't the first thing the CFO supposed to do is look at the numbers and advise whether there is an appropriate amount of cash on hand to give a distribution?

I guess I don't understand how the growing shortfalls could "surprise" everyone as to how large they were. Was the CFO in on some type of cover up with Bitar? Did they actively "cook the books" that they showed to the other board members?

It seems all the attention (rightfully so) has focused on HL and RB, but was the CFO indicted or somehow held accountable for this total mismangement of money?

Thanks.


The CFO must have been owned by Bitar. Waiting for court documents to surface showing the financial statements as prepared by the CFO that were submittted to HL, CF and the rest of the board..........

When we see those, then we will know who is full of ****.
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Old 10-28-2012, 03:12 PM   #393
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

The cfo was gil coronado. Oddly Howard doesn't talk about him much. From some reports he was very intimidating.
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Old 10-28-2012, 05:22 PM   #394
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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Originally Posted by browser2920 View Post
If this has been covered in another FTP thread, I apologize and would appreciate if someone could point me in the right direction.

Where was the CFO while all this was going on? Howard talks about trying to generate some special report about cash on hand vs player deposits, but wouldn't that type of info be readily seen in even the most basic of financial reports? And when the seizures and stuff were happening, wouldn't that also have been documented/accounted for in the financials? Likewise, when the CEO/board talks about distributions, isn't the first thing the CFO supposed to do is look at the numbers and advise whether there is an appropriate amount of cash on hand to give a distribution?

I guess I don't understand how the growing shortfalls could "surprise" everyone as to how large they were. Was the CFO in on some type of cover up with Bitar? Did they actively "cook the books" that they showed to the other board members?

It seems all the attention (rightfully so) has focused on HL and RB, but was the CFO indicted or somehow held accountable for this total mismangement of money?

Thanks.
The CFO did not honor his obligation to the players.


The CEO did not honor his obligation to the players.


The Board did not honor its obligation to the players.


Btw, all Board members had significant ownership in the company. Collectively the Board may have owned over 35% of the company; however, I am open to correction on this figure. The Board plus Chris owned over 50% of the company.
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Old 10-28-2012, 05:39 PM   #395
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

As one former FTP player joked to me when I recently asked him if he knew much about the Tilt CFO:

"CFO, what CFO? We don't need no stinking real CFO! We are poker players!

Diamond Flush just does not understand the Tilt business model!"

Last edited by tuccotrading; 10-28-2012 at 05:46 PM.
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Old 10-28-2012, 08:34 PM   #396
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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Where was the CFO while all this was going on?
The DoJ refers to the CFO, Gil Coronado, as "Unindicted co-conspirator #2" in the most recent superceding indictment against Bitar. He seems to be the person who supplied the false cash reports to the AGCC. Clearly he was in on the malfeasance.


To me, the more interesting quesions are:
  • Where is the CFO now?
  • Why hadn't he been charged either by the DoJ or by Alderney?
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Old 10-29-2012, 01:10 AM   #397
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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Originally Posted by tuccotrading View Post
Btw, all Board members had significant ownership in the company. Collectively the Board may have owned over 35% of the company; however, I am open to correction on this figure. The Board plus Chris owned over 50% of the company.
Chris was on the board. I think your first number was right. Something like 38% between Lederer, Bitar, Ferguson and First. The 4 board members.
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Old 10-29-2012, 01:47 AM   #398
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

The CFO makes me very curious. Because at a company the CEO isn't the dude doing the math, thats the accountants and the CFO.

So how did the accountants not alert everyone what was going on? the CFO must have told Ray.
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Old 10-29-2012, 04:14 AM   #399
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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The CFO makes me very curious. Because at a company the CEO isn't the dude doing the math, thats the accountants and the CFO.

So how did the accountants not alert everyone what was going on? the CFO must have told Ray.
Yeah, that's why I asked about the CFO. I was the COO of a small private software company that started with just having an outside accountant do our stuff once a month, and we grew to where we hired a real CFO. The guy had been the CFO at some subsidiaries of GE, and we were really lucky to get him.

But he was such an expert not only in accounting stuff, but also in all the legal aspects of money, and worked on an even par with our lawyers on that kind of stuff. We didn't make any sort of decision without the CFO going into detail about the costs/impact on our financial stability, etc. And we were just a small company.

It's just hard to imagine the FTP CFO not doing the same thing. TBH, listening to HL describe his role and lack of visibility of money stuff made me cringe. We were basically a tiny company learning things as we went, and still knew way more than he seems to have.

It just doesn't seem possible anyone could be both that naive on the one hand, but even more so that incurious as to what was going on with the company. Especially given the hundreds of millions of dollars being passed around.
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Old 10-29-2012, 12:32 PM   #400
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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Yeah, that's why I asked about the CFO. I was the COO of a small private software company that started with just having an outside accountant do our stuff once a month, and we grew to where we hired a real CFO. The guy had been the CFO at some subsidiaries of GE, and we were really lucky to get him.

But he was such an expert not only in accounting stuff, but also in all the legal aspects of money, and worked on an even par with our lawyers on that kind of stuff. We didn't make any sort of decision without the CFO going into detail about the costs/impact on our financial stability, etc. And we were just a small company.

It's just hard to imagine the FTP CFO not doing the same thing. TBH, listening to HL describe his role and lack of visibility of money stuff made me cringe. We were basically a tiny company learning things as we went, and still knew way more than he seems to have.

It just doesn't seem possible anyone could be both that naive on the one hand, but even more so that incurious as to what was going on with the company. Especially given the hundreds of millions of dollars being passed around.
That's simply because HL is FOS. Chris Ferguson and Erik Siedel both stopped receiving dividends. If they knew the company was having problems, then there is no way Howard didn't. I know they aren't related by blood, but he is the same person as Annie. Once the lie is out, it is the truth no matter what comes out after.

Side note:
You are killing me with this wait DF.
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