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Old 10-13-2012, 05:15 PM   #251
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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Originally Posted by mrwalken View Post
I tend to doubt he was really lying at that point. It was such an easy thing to disprove, it seems like he may have simply been mistaken.
Problem is it's clearly contradictory. He says that all wording post April 21 was fully cleared by them and the lawyers.

It's not just catching him out on some technical wording; it's the idea that never after BF did they mislead players. If you read the linked article, there are cases time and time again that players were lead to believe it was "business as usual" and "operating as normal" and there was no risk to player funds, when this was known to be not true.

One of the first things HL did when he got back to Dublin was to give bonuses to players--some of the most generous to players in a long time--to try and stop a bankrun and encourage people to deposit and play.

This along with the wording shows a clear and calculated plan to mislead ROW players.

And all this was done in the name of purportedly maintaining the value of their asset; something that in hindsight was clearly unwarranted (multiple suitors ~6 months after alderney pulled the plug). It's entirely unjustifiable to maintain value of an asset by lying to people to get them to play, deposit and not withdraw. HL knows this, hence the smokescreen of pretending they never said words like "safe and secure".

To maintain this charade, in full knowledge HL and pals launched fresh player bonuses, and cleared language that misled players. People kept 5- and 6-figure balances post BF because they believed what they read on the website (safe and secure), what FTPdoug was posting on 2+2 (business as usual, no risk to player funds).
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Old 10-13-2012, 05:34 PM   #252
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

I agree with others that Part V did not deliver anything that jumped out at me. I agree with DTM that I doubt the DOJ would ensure liquidity for ROW. I did think part 4 contained a lot of new and compelling information.

I keep reading the sentiment itt that HL has not been caught lying (or at lest not much.) Seriously?

Howard: Until April 7th/21st I thought things were financially fine....

No, Just NO.

The facts:

The company doubled revenues with no increase in profits from 2007-2009 because of processor costs exploding. (Howard says this in the 2+2 interview.)

An amount equal to about a third of all player funds was stolen or seized in 2010, yet they paid the exact same dividends.

There was no way for most US players to deposit to the site at all by the end of 2010.

I am curious, are there any posters that have followed this closely that think he did not know the company had less cash on hand than player balances owed by Jan' 11?

They hired Ray as a Patsy to run the company because they knew it was legally dicey from the very beginning. Then Howard exits the company very strategically to avoid liability. Of course he has some of the answers ready. It is not so much that Howard is lying, it is that the entire company was carefully constructed to lie. First to the govt, then its owners, then YOU.

Last edited by Just_a_guy; 10-13-2012 at 05:37 PM. Reason: 1st version said most players could not deposit. It was only most US.
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Old 10-13-2012, 06:14 PM   #253
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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Originally Posted by Just_a_guy View Post
They hired Ray as a Patsy to run the company because they knew it was legally dicey from the very beginning. Then Howard exits the company very strategically to avoid liability. Of course he has some of the answers ready. It is not so much that Howard is lying, it is that the entire company was carefully constructed to lie. First to the govt, then its owners, then YOU.
Yes. Well put. Haralabob's account of meeting Ray would fit well with your assertion.
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Old 10-13-2012, 06:37 PM   #254
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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Yes. Well put. Haralabob's account of meeting Ray would fit well with your assertion.
Exactly. Howard's own words and actions also match. To wit...

1.) He describes Ray as enthusiastic and serving a purpose, but really nothing else positive.
2.) He says they can't get any outside help for the company because of legal risks as a US facing company.
3.) Ray's name is on every single legal doc the company has (which Howard compiles to convince Andy B's group not to take over.)
4.) The company clearly had no succession plan despite a member revolt.
5.) His and Chris's control was such that no one would even be on the board with them.

Oh yea, and then there is the fact that Howard has a felony record for bookmaking related charges already. I am boggled that he can seemingly stroll without concern in to a Vegas casino when most of his counterparts in the game will never touch US soil again.

Last edited by Just_a_guy; 10-13-2012 at 06:39 PM. Reason: Described Howard's confirmed criminal past inacurately.
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Old 10-13-2012, 07:00 PM   #255
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

Bleh, lowest-content installment yet; more or less devoid of any new info. Just reads like a "DF's Thoughts on The Lederer Files" book report.

I've been willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, taking her at her word that every installment is building to...well, some cohesive and novel take-away. But when does it start to come together? Feels a bit like the last season of Lost, with the remaining episodes ticking away, and thinking "wtf, nothing's really coming together here...how the F are they going to wrap this up in just 3 more ep's?"...and sure enough: weird, unsatisfying finale.
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Old 10-13-2012, 07:01 PM   #256
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

I am curious where CF is in all this. He hasn't released a memo right? did Howard mention where Chris is or what he is up to?
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Old 10-13-2012, 07:08 PM   #257
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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Bleh, lowest-content installment yet; more or less devoid of any new info. Just reads like a "DF's Thoughts on The Lederer Files" book report.
If you take out the long block quotes and the unsupported speculation, the first four parts could've been condensed down to a paragraph.
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Old 10-13-2012, 07:31 PM   #258
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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I am curious where CF is in all this. He hasn't released a memo right? did Howard mention where Chris is or what he is up to?
You haven't heard and you likely won't here from him. Why should the Chairman of the Board of ftp bother to speak to poker players?

He is probably feeling Keyser Söze about now.

-He successfully hid a $60m account from the DOJ ($45m of which he got out.)
-He is owed $5m by Phil Ivey
-He is owed a lot of the $45m by a lot of people (rainy day fund.)
-Imrich (now his personal lawyer,) got ~20m.
-Best of all, two levels of beard.

gg


I love this moment Howard describes where he says -

"Ray you have to tell Chris what you just told me."

Mom says you have to tell Dad yourself this time, even if he will get mad.
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Old 10-13-2012, 08:42 PM   #259
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

To those complaining about DF's format for her commentary:

For me, it's hardly rocket science. Since the Poker News interview was presented in seven half hour parts, it makes perfect sense for DF to parallel the original, distilling each part down to the info that supports her conclusions, and adding where needed (like from the 2+2 followup). Never mind that it's not necessarily new information...she's putting down a foundation.

I guess you 'haters' are the instant gratification type, who would pick up a crime novel and read only the last page, cause you just want to know the butler did it and he used poison - forget the hows and whys and the back story. To you, I say as some other posters have, just wait until Part VII is available, read only that, and quit-yer-bitchin. And if you don't know how she got to her conclusions, so be it - you can always go back and read the first six parts.

Granted this is not a fiction who-done-it, but kindly, DF is giving us a tool we don't usually get in that genre ....she's specifically pointing out the clues (items), that the reader should pay attention to because they're going to be significant to the conclusion or discussed later in more detail.

To DF, I say, I get what you're doing and you go girl! You're doing a great job and I support you all the way.
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Old 10-13-2012, 10:32 PM   #260
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

After reading all 5 parts thus far, DF's anonymity and the anonymity of her sources is becoming a problem for me. The reason journalists can cite anonymous sources is because their identity and more importantly their credibility have long been established. If you have neither established credibility nor does anyone know who you are, how can we trust that you have all these sources or even trust that you are not someone with an ax to grind. I am certainly not implying that this is the case, only mentioning the fact that these things are in fact possible. When you couple these thoughts with the fact that she really hasn't reported anything new ( besides her own opinions on the circumstances and events at hand) it seems pretty flimsy to me. I am not a hater or anything, just naturally cautious about accepting, as fact, things that are reported by anonymous people citing anonymous sources. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 10-13-2012, 10:43 PM   #261
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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After reading all 5 parts thus far, DF's anonymity and the anonymity of her sources is becoming a problem for me. The reason journalists can cite anonymous sources is because their identity and more importantly their credibility have long been established. If you have neither established credibility nor does anyone know who you are, how can we trust that you have all these sources or even trust that you are not someone with an ax to grind. I am certainly not implying that this is the case, only mentioning the fact that these things are in fact possible. When you couple these thoughts with the fact that she really hasn't reported anything new ( besides her own opinions on the circumstances and events at hand) it seems pretty flimsy to me. I am not a hater or anything, just naturally cautious about accepting, as fact, things that are reported by anonymous people citing anonymous sources. Just my 2 cents.
Don't think she's credible? Stop reading. Those who've been through this know her worth.
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:28 PM   #262
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Re: Diamond Flush Article: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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Originally Posted by DoTheMath;35205939

Pocket Kings Ltd., and Pocket Kings Consulting Ltd, were in Ireland. Pocket Kings Ltd. was large enought to exceed the threshold. It was audited by Grant Thornton, which is about as big as you can get without going Big Four. These [B
audits did not turn up the problems[/B] because FTP was structured in such a way that Pocket Kings did not handle players' money.

Player money was handled by the licenced companies, Filco Ltd, Vantage Ltd. and Orininc Ltd., which were not in Ireland. They are Alderney companies. Alderney doesn't have any audit requirements, even, it seems, for companies holding client's money.

Perhaps it is only coincidence that Howard and Ray happened to structure FTP in such a manner that what was happening to player funds was hidden from public scrutiny and regulatory oversight.
wasn't the FTP licensed somewhere else then everything switched to aldernay which apparently doesn't require audits? Were they subject to audits b4 switch? Such changes don't usually just happen with coincidence. If they were that lucky, they probably would still be running good w company to properly profit from. Licensing switchover seems like clear inflection point to begin fraud investigation.

Last edited by headbanger; 10-13-2012 at 11:36 PM. Reason: aldernay's lack of requiring audits needs more love
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:41 PM   #263
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Re: Diamond Flush Article: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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Originally Posted by headbanger View Post
wasn't the FTP licensed somewhere else then everything switched to aldernay which apparently doesn't require audits? Were they subject to audits b4 switch? Such changes don't usually just happen with coincidence. If they were that lucky, they probably would still be running good w company to properly profit from. Licensing switchover seems like clear inflection point to begin fraud investigation.
They were licensed by the Kahnawake Gambling Commission. This was marginally a better situation for players, because it was easer to tell the licensing agency was a joke. The AGCC may have convinced more players that they were really interested in protecting players. AFAIK, the KGC didn't require ongoing audits either.
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:44 PM   #264
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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Oh yea, and then there is the fact that Howard has a felony record for bookmaking related charges already.
While you put it in the edit, to be fair, HL doesn't have a felony record for book making. HL was accused of essentially giving illegal bookmakers in NY the LV line for sporting events. He was never convicted of a crime. Given that at the same time or before "Jimmy the Greek" was broadcasting the same information on CBS's pregame show on Sunday afternoon, this was not the crime of the century.
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Old 10-14-2012, 12:36 AM   #265
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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While you put it in the edit, to be fair, HL doesn't have a felony record for book making. HL was accused of essentially giving illegal bookmakers in NY the LV line for sporting events. He was never convicted of a crime. Given that at the same time or before "Jimmy the Greek" was broadcasting the same information on CBS's pregame show on Sunday afternoon, this was not the crime of the century.
I agree, in fact I think what he was accused of should not be illegal. Heck, I support it. My posts in the HV thread should make clear I am not on the side of enforcement relative to sports betting and bookmaking. I like how Rini describes it here: http://www.billrini.com/2009/09/08/7...-with-the-law/

The point was (and is,) that this experience meant that from day 1 having a Patsy was useful. I want people to understand the world from an operator perspective. This guy knew what being in the fed cross hairs was all about better then almost anyone in poker.

My writing was bad there, though. Apologies. I would make a very bad reporter. The nic is meant to communicate this, but but I'll try to do better.

Regarding DF and anonymity, I guess I agree with some of the critique, I just don't care. She is working for free so if her credibility is not established in a typical fashion I am fine with it.

Since it is credibility check time. Am I the only one that is bothered by this-

Howard calls MM and says he is tired and can't do the interview with DF. MM says he understands, and admonishes DF. Mike comes here pressing the case that DF should reveal. Is that right? I hope not.
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Old 10-14-2012, 01:17 AM   #266
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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The first really clear proof that Lederer lied in the interviews (at least, the first I've seen) appears in pt5.

Spoiler:
He doesn't deny making that statement, watch the last minute:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZme4...feature=relmfu

So still no proof he lied.

What we got now is ooooh, he admits this and that -like talking to somebody- as if they were crimes.
Not very journalistic to say the least. The way she says things "with authority" and supposively gets all these reports, official and all I guess, is somehow tilting. Just hate to be treated like an idiot.

Also why does she tell HL who her source is and not us? Show one, show all.
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Old 10-14-2012, 06:46 AM   #267
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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He doesn't deny making that statement, watch the last minute:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZme4...feature=relmfu

So still no proof he lied.
That actually makes the lie a lot worse.

In the last minute of the video, he is talking about a press release that went out on April 15. He says:

Quote:
... and I know at the end of that statement I believ that there was some reference to the fact that everyone's money was "safe and secure." that was clearly inaccurate. I can tell you that I was one of many people on that call ... I had no idea on April 15 that that was not a true statement. And i'm very disappointed that some people who should have known that that was not a true statement allowed that to be made.
HL contends that he didn't know about the financial situation until April 20. The screenshot on the website is from after April 20 -- it is from the time that the domain name was returned to FTP, which was i think 5-7 days post BF.

On the pokercast, he says:

Quote:
I don’t believe that “safe and secure”... that those words would have been used after April 20. And if it did happen, it happened without me knowing about it.
This statement stayed on the website until after the AGCC shutdown at the end of July.

So to conclude:

- States that "safe and secure" was used on April 15, prior to his knowledge this was a lie, and that he is disappointed that such words are used.

- Finds out about the financial situation on April 20.

- Get's the domain back, puts up the message "safe and secure"--words approved by the lawyers--and keeps it there for something like four months.

As I stated in my post above, it is NOT about just catching him out about a certain phrase, but the duplicity of saying on one hand how he was "disappointed about people who knew approving language like 'safe and secure'" but at the same time approving similar language, launching big player bonuses (with money that doesn't exist!) etc, after he knew the financial situation.
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Old 10-14-2012, 07:16 AM   #268
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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Originally Posted by Just_a_guy View Post
I agree with others that Part V did not deliver anything that jumped out at me. I agree with DTM that I doubt the DOJ would ensure liquidity for ROW. I did think part 4 contained a lot of new and compelling information.

I keep reading the sentiment itt that HL has not been caught lying (or at lest not much.) Seriously?

Howard: Until April 7th/21st I thought things were financially fine....

No, Just NO.

The facts:

The company doubled revenues with no increase in profits from 2007-2009 because of processor costs exploding. (Howard says this in the 2+2 interview.)

An amount equal to about a third of all player funds was stolen or seized in 2010, yet they paid the exact same dividends.

There was no way for most US players to deposit to the site at all by the end of 2010.

I am curious, are there any posters that have followed this closely that think he did not know the company had less cash on hand than player balances owed by Jan' 11?

They hired Ray as a Patsy to run the company because they knew it was legally dicey from the very beginning. Then Howard exits the company very strategically to avoid liability. Of course he has some of the answers ready. It is not so much that Howard is lying, it is that the entire company was carefully constructed to lie. First to the govt, then its owners, then YOU.
For those that have followed the story closely from the beginning, nothing DF has posted in this series has been 'new' information, everyone knows he is lying when he said he didn't know about the shortfall, but everyone also knows that the reason he is lying is because of the 'ponzi scheme' allegation.

Prior to BF Howard would likely have been proud to tell the other owners how they had managed to pass off the risks of operating in the US with a DOJ seizing players funds without skipping a single distribution.

He probably thinks Gil did a fantastic job by listing seized accounts as cash available on their AGCC reports, and Tom Dwan said it would have been 'ridiculous' to operate without running a deposit backlog - so it was only the amount of the backlog which was still in player accounts that surprised them.

Mike Matusow flat out blamed Full Tilt's failure (after talking to Howard) on US players who exploited the ability to make phantom deposits, and defended operating with less than 100% 'cash coverage' by saying 'even banks don't operate that way'.

People aren't saying 'Howard hasn't been lying', they are simply surprised that someone who had access to inside information including leaked company emails all throughout this process hasn't put forth a smoking gun yet.

Nobody believes Howard is telling the truth, but some of us are beginning to wonder if DF has anything more incriminating than her own speculation which simply mirrors what anyone else who has followed the fiasco closely could have made.
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Old 10-14-2012, 10:29 AM   #269
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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People aren't saying 'Howard hasn't been lying', they are simply surprised that someone who had access to inside information including leaked company emails all throughout this process hasn't put forth a smoking gun yet.

Nobody believes Howard is telling the truth, but some of us are beginning to wonder if DF has anything more incriminating than her own speculation which simply mirrors what anyone else who has followed the fiasco closely could have made.
So many people are misunderstanding what this series by DF is all about. This is not the "DF reveals all about FTP" story, this is "The Distortion of Truth in the Lederer Files" story. She is basically going over what was said by Howard in the interview and analyzing it, while injecting some of her knowledge into it. While I agree nothing earth-shattering has been included in this piece so far, I was only expecting so much, but I do hope the final installment really does blow me away like she is kind of alluding to.
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:54 AM   #270
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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Originally Posted by 413AceKing View Post
So many people are misunderstanding what this series by DF is all about. This is not the "DF reveals all about FTP" story, this is "The Distortion of Truth in the Lederer Files" story. She is basically going over what was said by Howard in the interview and analyzing it, while injecting some of her knowledge into it. While I agree nothing earth-shattering has been included in this piece so far, I was only expecting so much, but I do hope the final installment really does blow me away like she is kind of alluding to.

After this buildup:

Quote:
Posted on September 30, 2012 by Diamond Flush
...During this next week, I will be publishing my own articles outlining my take on what was said and not said. Readers will see some of the questions that I would have asked, what I believe Howard would have answered (based on his already on the record answers) and what the truth really is.

If Howard Lederer thought those prior interview hours were too stressful and hard on his family, he was right to cancel ours. I have no doubt that “stressful” would have been considered a huge understatement in the end.
The expectations of most were that she was going to do much more than simply 'inject some of her knowledge'.
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Old 10-14-2012, 01:19 PM   #271
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

What I find really strange is that people are preoccupied with pointless stuff yet in part 5 DF highlighted one of the most import issues that Howard did not answer.

The way FTP/HL treated ROW players in April 2011 to closing on June 29th 2011.

He brushed off the Ponzi Scheme allegations with a stupid analogy but its clear they basically operated as one when they offered promotions and incentives to ROW players to deposit knowing full well they did not have the money to cover the payouts.

In May 2011 they set on a deliberate strategy to slow pay certain regions knowing they had little money left.

How can anyone defend this? Its purely criminal.

HL knew about the financial state of the company at the time and without doubt orchestrated this robbing peter to pay paul type ponzi scheme.
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Old 10-14-2012, 01:39 PM   #272
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

From DN on twitter: @RealKidPoker: The more research you do, the more obvious it becomes that justice will only be served if Howard Lederer goes to prison.

@JBSportsTrading: @RealKidPoker what about your boyfriend Erik going to prison for stealing 2 million?

@RealKidPoker: @JBSportsTrading I'd suggest rehab as a more suitable place.
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Old 10-14-2012, 02:16 PM   #273
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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What I find really strange is that people are preoccupied with pointless stuff yet in part 5 DF highlighted one of the most import issues that Howard did not answer.

The way FTP/HL treated ROW players in April 2011 to closing on June 29th 2011.

He brushed off the Ponzi Scheme allegations with a stupid analogy but its clear they basically operated as one when they offered promotions and incentives to ROW players to deposit knowing full well they did not have the money to cover the payouts.

In May 2011 they set on a deliberate strategy to slow pay certain regions knowing they had little money left.

How can anyone defend this? Its purely criminal.

HL knew about the financial state of the company at the time and without doubt orchestrated this robbing peter to pay paul type ponzi scheme.
Defense one: ROW players are being made whole by the purchaser of the assets, no victims, no crime.

Defense two: Only ROW players were effected by that point by a ROW company not doing business with Americans - the DOJ would likely have no jurisdiction over Wire Fraud - whether a crime occurred or not.

So long as the pre April 21 'I didn't know' can't be disproved, he's likely in the clear of any criminal prosecution.
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Old 10-14-2012, 02:47 PM   #274
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

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Defense one: ROW players are being made whole by the purchaser of the assets, no victims, no crime.
This has zero to do with his actions. Im not expecting him to get prosecuted to be honest but its clearly the case he was a total ****ing scumbag, not the victim he portrays himself.

As for being made "whole" I think you are jumping the gun a little.

I was one of the first in the old FTP thread to be really wary of that term when it related to the GBT bid. (and I was proven 100% correct)

I would be totally stunned if US players received 100% of what they are owed. (100% balances plus value of FTP points and various bonuses earned)

"Made whole" in my book is being paid everything that is owed not some %

Quote:
Defense two: Only ROW players were effected by that point by a ROW company not doing business with Americans - the DOJ would likely have no jurisdiction over Wire Fraud - whether a crime occurred or not.

So long as the pre April 21 'I didn't know' can't be disproved, he's likely in the clear of any criminal prosecution.
A counter argument would be is that their actions post April 21st made the repayment of US players less likely, as they owed US players, they were still technically doing business with those players and defrauded them.

Frankly I don't for one moment believe Howard when he said he knows nothing
about the bank transaction fraud. I also don't believe him when he says he had no idea how much money the company had on hand or if they were underwater.
HL from all accounts is a detail nit. Yet he continues to issue huge distributions without knowing the exact financial state of the company.

Does anyone buy that BS?
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Old 10-14-2012, 02:57 PM   #275
chuckiegolf
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Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamiller866 View Post
Defense one: ROW players are being made whole by the purchaser of the assets, no victims, no crime.

Defense two: Only ROW players were effected by that point by a ROW company not doing business with Americans - the DOJ would likely have no jurisdiction over Wire Fraud - whether a crime occurred or not.

So long as the pre April 21 'I didn't know' can't be disproved, he's likely in the clear of any criminal prosecution.

The DOJ must be now have access at to all the records of Full Tilt. Included in these records are the internal financial statements.

As a managing member of the LLC, HL should have been provided financial statements at least quarterly if not more often. If Bitar and the CFO were falsifying the financial reports provided to HL, HL may be off the hook, but Bitar and the CFO are headed to jail.

We shall see what happens in court.
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