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-   -   Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files (https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/news-views-gossip/diamond-flush-articles-distortion-truth-lederer-files-1252877/)

blueodum 10-04-2012 12:04 AM

Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files
 
Quote:

"Why do you feel the need to have an opinion, even if it is horribly misinformed?"

Are you serious? I want to believe you are intelligent, but comments like that make me think otherwise. Truly a moronic statement on your part.

I played on FT as well and have significant interest in the issue. My opinion is no more or less valid than yours on the matter. I have listened to DF's interviews on 2+2 and read her posts, and my opinion is that she offers more opinion that factual substance. Go back and listen to the interviews and read her posts. Not much of what she shares is original material, but only regurgitation of information previously reported by other sources. She may have a contact that has given her very limited information, but nothing earth shattering.
You didn't answer my question(see bold).

Coarsely_Ground 10-04-2012 09:39 PM

Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files
 
Diamond Flush is giving us information that fills in the gaps between what we already knew, what HL told us, and what we (and probably the DOJ) need to really understand what went down at FTP.
I for one applaud her efforts.

waq 10-05-2012 12:31 AM

Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files
 
I would suggest that the DOJ already knows.

hankypankyAA 10-05-2012 12:50 AM

Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files
 
She's likely to reveal by the end what most of you should already know. They were all skimming money off the top, fudging numbers and riding a gravy train. The fact that no one seemed to ask for detailed financial information on the state of the company is utterly hilarious and incredibly irresponsible. Whether or not they knew the company was under water or if that was ray's doing is the only question that remains. Even if howard and the other owners didn't know the company was solvent it doesn't absolve them of any blame in my opinion. It was their respnsibility to know , ask, and of course audit.

MicroRoller 10-05-2012 12:57 AM

Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hankypankyAA (Post 35135609)
She's likely to reveal by the end what most of you should already know. They were all skimming money off the top, fudging numbers and riding a gravy train. The fact that no one seemed to ask for detailed financial information on the state of the company is utterly hilarious and incredibly irresponsible. Whether or not they knew the company was under water or if that was ray's doing is the only question that remains. Even if howard and the other owners didn't know the company was solvent it doesn't absolve them of any blame in my opinion. It was their respnsibility to know , ask, and of course audit.

Not really. The LLC structure protects owners and in this case even separates them from the management of the company except for those that are managers or serve other positions within the company. On top of that it doesn't seem like Lederer and Bitar were all that friendly or cooperative when the other owners had concerns.

Wilbury Twist 10-05-2012 01:47 AM

Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by brasil5347 (Post 35117595)
Not much of what she shares is original material, but only regurgitation of information previously reported by other sources.

You keep saying this, almost verbatim. Is she "regurgitating" info from other poker news sources? If so, what are these outlets?

If anything, I feel like she has had insights found nowhere else. The GBT post (cited above) stands as the best example. Perhaps other outlets are quoting her, and you have mistakenly concluded she has used those outlets as her sources.

If you would be so inclined, perhaps you can snip a portion from one of her entries, then mark them up with the following annotations:

1. Info she pulled from other sources (cited).
2. Info she has apparently received from an exclusive, inside source.
3. Statements Lederer made firsthand in the Parvis and/or Pokercast interviews.
4. Statements inferred from the two interviews, but were not said firsthand.

Hell, I wish DF would do this but oh well.

TONZ 10-05-2012 05:14 AM

Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bene Gesserit (Post 35113237)
There are a few (very few) who want this series discredited at any cost. ALL of them are posting. Sorry but DF has the stick and the chops!

FYP

TONZ 10-05-2012 05:18 AM

Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files
 
I dont know if this is a dumb question or has already been explained, but why does Chris Ferguson never want to make distributions ever? I mean if I was a shareholder and I invested in the company, I would want some sort of return on my investment at some point. Otherwise what incentive do I have to invest in the company if I never ever get anything out of it?

NeedsToBeSaid 10-05-2012 06:08 AM

Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TONZ (Post 35137039)
I dont know if this is a dumb question or has already been explained, but why does Chris Ferguson never want to make distributions ever? I mean if I was a shareholder and I invested in the company, I would want some sort of return on my investment at some point. Otherwise what incentive do I have to invest in the company if I never ever get anything out of it?

Most likely (if those reports are true) he believed that the real value in the company was to build it and then sell it. This is not an uncommon strategy for many businesses. It was reported that this is what the ownership wanted to do before 06, but after uigia they weren't likely to get the price they wanted so they decided to pay themselves "profits" instead.

NewLiveFish 10-05-2012 08:47 AM

Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NeedsToBeSaid (Post 35137193)
Most likely (if those reports are true) he believed that the real value in the company was to build it and then sell it. This is not an uncommon strategy for many businesses. It was reported that this is what the ownership wanted to do before 06, but after uigia they weren't likely to get the price they wanted so they decided to pay themselves "profits" instead.

I agree, but I think there is more to it than that. Before Lederer, Juanda and even Bitar, FTP was Ferguson's child. He started the entire thing on his own, doing the programming himself. Everyone else saw this as a way to make a lot of money. Ferguson did it to see if he could do it. I think he wanted it to be the biggest and best site on the planet. Given Pokerstars size, it was going to take a lot of money to catch up and he wanted to spend everything he could to get there. Sending checks out meant that there was less money to reinvest in the company to achieve that goal.

The fatal flaw in FTP was that the board decided to split the baby. Instead of buying CF out and pursue profit payments or deciding to forego the money and gain the respect to beat PS, they chose both. They will eventually end up with neither.

WillCK 10-05-2012 11:57 AM

Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files
 
I am still hung up on the "Distributions paid in error" thing. The company was underwater for 15 months while distributions were still being paid. In the 2P2 interview, this is brought up more than once as to why HL didn't feel it was important on an ethical basis, if not a legal basis to return that money to be applied to the fund to repay players.

His response was basically that none of the other owners were returning loans..much less distributions....so he didn't either. When pressed about it....he said something to the effect of "I guess I should have liquidated everything and put the money back in, I just felt the priority was to keep the asset in one piece to get a deal done because that would be the best option to get the customers paid"

This is a huge red flag for me pertaining to whether HL was actively scamming or just didn't know how bad things were after he supposedly "retired"

I mean he currently has 7 houses in the area and about the same number of high end cars (mostly Audis) that were bought with player funds...and it never crosses his mind to sell them off and put the money into a fund for player repayment?

Of course the DOJ is going to handle that by going after all these assets after the fact....but I think his story would hold more water if he had made some effort to liquidate some of these holdings and put the money back into the company before the DOJ decided to go after them.

SumNewb 10-05-2012 12:19 PM

Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files
 
Cliffs:

'This is what Howard told PokerNews and 2+2, I'll tell you why this is important later'

We all watched the Lederer files and listened to the podcast. Just tell us what you have to say ffs

BullDyke 10-05-2012 12:31 PM

Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SumNewb (Post 35140184)
Cliffs:

'This is what Howard told PokerNews and 2+2, I'll tell you why this is important later'

We all watched the Lederer files and listened to the podcast. Just tell us what you have to say ffs

+1

Everyone was annoyed by the way pokernews did it, but this is way worse.

MicroRoller 10-05-2012 12:46 PM

Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by WillCK (Post 35139940)
I am still hung up on the "Distributions paid in error" thing.

Another thing I find incriminating is while he claimed they were going to accept any deal that resulted in players getting paid they initially turned down PokerStars when they first expressed interest in the company based on Bitar's fear of giving away secrets to their competitor.

He want's to say they couldn't let the CEO (Bitar) and CFO (Coronado) go because of technicalities due to licensing and bank account ownership, he wants to say there was no point in firing them as they wouldn't be part of the new company anyway, eh fine. I don't agree with it but it's a somewhat plausible argument. Letting the people that were most likely at the epicenter of the FTP financial problems continue to make decisions that would effect the ability to sell the company and get players repaid is complete BS.

Lederer has no problem harshly criticizing others for his belief that they interfered with players getting repaid but has no harsh words for the people that caused the problem to begin with?

crsseyed 10-05-2012 01:34 PM

Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files
 
Read thru this thread in total so far: 30 minutes of my life I will never get back.

Why does everything have to be done in installments?

LostOstrich 10-05-2012 01:59 PM

Re: **Part 2 From Diamond Flush**
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Squibz (Post 35108170)
Why is it being released in seven parts if it's useless without all parts?

thisssssssssss

2bad4u 10-05-2012 02:05 PM

Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files
 
lol installments...

tamiller866 10-05-2012 02:31 PM

Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files
 
What has been ignored so far is the role all the 'lawyering up' played, a lead negotiator on their deals, the guy that brought in GBT and took credit on the PS deal, was Ray Bitar's lawyer - speculated by many as being DF's primary source - FTP's corporate lawyer, responsible for approving the legality of everything they were doing, was Chris Ferguson's lawyer.

I'm sure all the lawyers acted ethically, but what might be ethical for their clients may not have aligned with the best interest of the other shareholders or the players every step of the way through this process.

Returning 'distributions paid in error' might like the 'right' thing to do for example, but it might not be the right thing from a legal perspective, firing Bitar might seem like a no-brainer, but some lawyers may have felt differently.

WillCK 10-05-2012 02:35 PM

Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MicroRoller (Post 35140572)
Another thing I find incriminating is while he claimed they were going to accept any deal that resulted in players getting paid they initially turned down PokerStars when they first expressed interest in the company based on Bitar's fear of giving away secrets to their competitor.

He want's to say they couldn't let the CEO (Bitar) and CFO (Coronado) go because of technicalities due to licensing and bank account ownership, he wants to say there was no point in firing them as they wouldn't be part of the new company anyway, eh fine. I don't agree with it but it's a somewhat plausible argument. Letting the people that were most likely at the epicenter of the FTP financial problems continue to make decisions that would effect the ability to sell the company and get players repaid is complete BS.

Lederer has no problem harshly criticizing others for his belief that they interfered with players getting repaid but has no harsh words for the people that caused the problem to begin with?

I agree with this. Bitar should have had any decision making power taken away at the very least the moment "the backlog" was made known to HL and CF. Bitar's name was on all the licensing and I get that it would take time to change that over...so let him keep the title until you can facilitate getting his name off all the accounts/licenses and bring in a COO to make all decisions after that.

HL also cited another reason that the PStars deal couldn't go through initially and that was because both companies had a potential billion dollar liability with the DOJ at that point....but since PStars was absolutely talking with the DOJ at that point...I don't understand why they couldn't broach the subject then. Just ask the DOJ: If we were to buy FTP's assets and pay off all players...how much would the financial penalties be in total?

I really think that HL had some good intentions...but by the same token....he didn't want to give back the wealth he had accrued from FTP.

Everyone saw it as a sinking ship at that point and just decided they weren't going to dump the money back into a black hole...players be damned...when the entire company as an asset sells...they will probably get theirs....except CF who apparently gave up $14 million of money earmarked for him to go back into the company coffers.

Cash poor or not...money gone or invested or not...there was about $10 million a month paid out in "distributions in error" for 15 months that was almost exactly the amount needed to pay the US Players in full....add in unpaid loans etc...and there is more than enough to cover the shortfall for US Players. So you have to sell a house or two...or borrow because you blew it on sports betting. Do it. The distributions you received after "the backlog" weren't profits...they were player deposits.

I don't think the owners should be asked to give back distributions from when the company was operating in the black...but after that...it's basically stolen money.

himomitsme 10-05-2012 04:53 PM

Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files
 
part III out: http://diamondflushpoker.com/

chinamaniac 10-05-2012 05:16 PM

Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files
 
Was there an opportunity to avoid Black Friday from happening if FTP agreed to leave the US market?
Was the government insisting that a $ 1 billion fine be paid regardless?
Did Howard know that these talks would not go on indefinitely without some action being taken?
Why did he not share information about these talks with other owners?
What steps was FTP taking that could have avoided Black Friday from happening?
Why did the company not stop accepting echecks from the US marketplace, or at least the states that had laws that could be referenced with charges?
If the company had agreed to leave the US market, did Howard think that there was enough liquid funds available to immediately pay off U.S. customers and keep the company functioning in the rest of the world? If yes, when and how did he check on those numbers? If not, what steps did he take to begin to procure enough capitalization to make repayment possible?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkZrFSQkM2M

Wilbury Twist 10-05-2012 05:51 PM

Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files
 
I'm a little amused that some people are saying "TLDR" and "Cliffs?" while just as many are grousing that DF did not write this piece as one large post but rather seven smaller ones.

MeadowAtDusk 10-05-2012 06:39 PM

Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files
 
Why is this being released in 7 installments? DF obviously knows the ending of what she is writing because she constantly declares "this will become clearer later" or whatever. It feels like a page-view grab to me unless I am missing something.

I was eagerly awaiting the results of DF's investigation but now I don't see the point in reading the first 6 installments until the 7th comes out if nothing in the first 6 will become "clearer until later".

westhimher 10-05-2012 06:42 PM

Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MeadowAtDusk (Post 35145376)
Why is this being released in 7 installments? DF obviously knows the ending of what she is writing because she constantly declares "this will become clearer later" or whatever. It feels like a page-view grab to me unless I am missing something.

I was eagerly awaiting the results of DF's investigation but now I don't see the point in reading the first 6 installments until the 7th comes out if nothing in the first 6 will become "clearer until later".

I completely agree, I mean the first three told me nothing that I didn't already know and that "more will be explained later."

NeedsToBeSaid 10-05-2012 06:48 PM

Re: Diamond Flush Articles: The Distortion of Truth from the Lederer Files
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MeadowAtDusk (Post 35145376)
Why is this being released in 7 installments? DF obviously knows the ending of what she is writing because she constantly declares "this will become clearer later" or whatever. It feels like a page-view grab to me unless I am missing something.

Something is missing from your theory. There are no advertisements on the site.


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