Yes, you can also search for TheJusticeDept and tweet a text once ur on their page.
Just change the Tweet however you want.


Also done

Thanks for the info, done as well.

Done! Sick of this!

And hopefully when FTP people are paid out we can put all of our attention on UB/AP while we try to get congress and each state to pass online poker.

Rakeme,

This is a brilliant pitch if you asked me! Someone in the right position should push this.

Get real. No "billionaire" or "casino" is going to bail out anyone for $50 million or so, in hopes of getting some "good publicity":

1. They would have little chance of recovery of the money, as online poker is only in limited markets currently.

2. They would be better off bidding for the customer database, for future use. They can always "bonus" the crap out of it when/if they get a license I some US jurisdiction.

The best hope for UB/AP players getting paid is for DOJ "want/decide" to take some of the forfeited assets or their cash substitute from the FTP matter and use it to pay player claims or victim remission related to the AP/UB matter.

(FWIW, I hope UB/AP players owed money did go ahead and file claims for their fund balances, it is easier o settle a claim from available assets than pay a remission it seems.)

So I'm guessing you advise billionaires on how to expend and think for a living, sick job yo.

Um, i just called this number and got the answering machine of "Dorothy Brady"

Ps- it wouldn't be a bad idea for an online site to buy player balances and only pay it out via 100% rakeback on their site. It would almost certainly insure sick traffic and good games (esp. If it was contributed rake method)

hellz yea traffic would be humongous if all these vets saw a positive pr move like that... the implications of safety and security would be paramount at a time like this. Plus they could swoop in a make billions from a very rich disenfranchised market.


Either this or give me a shot at confronting Tom Scott the twerp or 'The FatDaddy' Russ aka Cookie Monster aka Cheat so much they call him Billy Ocean aka the ub HamBurglar

I bet I could get some of the money back !

Not so Funny/Funny Story:
I actually have chat logs of typing with graycat who honestly felt to me like an older gentleman. And after the accusations came out I felt like it was Tom's father, that was reported somewhere as well. We were talking smack at a 6-person cash table, in which he was cleaning up lmao. And he had the true gutlessness to solicit me to play HU, after jarring with him for a couple minutes of course had me amped. Needless to say he wiped the floor, the ceiling, the walls, the cabinet, door, everything he wiped with me. This combination was catastrophically humbling lol. Luckily I can laugh at it now but it is truly mind numbing that any of these figures have any role let alone a great one in the US revival.

"You have no idea."

- Claus Von Bulow

@DQ,

Wait, we were supposed to file claims? That's news to me, I didn't even know it was possible.

I had suggested back then it would be a prudent thing to do in poker seizure cases, to put on record the various "constructive trust" theories about player funds, but was shouted at by a Greek Chorus of "experts" that to advocate pursuing the filing of player claims was "lunacy" and laughable. My suggestion went unheeded. I have no idea if player claims were filed or whether there was an applicable bar date to do so. Perhaps, "experts" in forfeiture law can tell us.

DOJ clearly can be given discretion to apply the proceeds of FTP liquidated assets to settle filed claims asserted against AP/UB assets. Whether DOJ can be entreated to seek that discretionary power from the Court to pay AP/UB players, as claimants or "victims" remains to be seen.

(Unfortunately, the filing of a "claim" may be key to getting any funds from the FTP proceeds applied as payment for claimants or "victims" of AP/UB. It seems easier procedurally and under law to settle a "claim" against AP/UB than to apply FTP assets to fund a slow walk through the AP/UB "victim remission process. )

Well, I'm obviously no expert, but I have clashed with some members of the same Greek chorus from time to time. I'm a little surprised you were unaware of the claim filed by Webb, a poker player, in the case. The court, persuaded by arguments presented by the DOJ in opposition to the claim, disposed of any notion of a player ownership interest or of a constructive trust. I have no idea how good Webb's lawyer was.

I am interested in your theory of how this is possible given the regulations regarding remission and the definitions therein.

When reviewing the specifics of GCG's authorization to conduct remission, I observed some areas that, while surely long shots at best, looked like they could at least be used to ask for DoJ to expand the process along the lines of what DQ mentions here.

I reached out to DQ and a couple of others to find out if there's anything to my observations. Some potential pathways arose from those discussions, which I forwarded on to PPA's legal team for review. I do think DQ is correct when he says, even if everything is successful (again, a considerable long shot in itself), DoJ would still have to want to do this.

PPA is continuing to meet with DoJ on the UB/AP matter. In all frankness, it is a very tough situation here.

And I guess the other thing worth asking is even if they were to process claims for UB monies would they deal with all players or just american citizens? Seems like such a long-shot at this point- thanks for the update and the honesty though.

To be honest, I sort of recalled some players filing claims in one or more of the seizure cases. I did not recall the specifics. It would be helpful to get a copy of the papers filed by the sides in the Webb claim litigation, especially if it were AP/UB. Any links ?

As TE noted, DOJ needs to want to do this, as an equitable matter. (That is a tall order, which is why a group representative such as the PPA is crucial. If DOJ can be persuaded of the equity in doing so, the challenge becomes mapping out a route to do so.

If the "player claim" has been tossed already as a category as you cite, that is an obstacle. Also, expect other claimants versus AP/UB to pop up. (Take a look at the AP/UB docket.)

However, much water has likely gone under the bridge since the Webb ruling, I expect. DOJ DID look out for players in the PStars/FTP context, and a pool of assets has been secured. DOJ has been given some discretion to use those assets to pay claims asserted against AP/UB in one notable instance I read about.

Keep in mind, this is a one-outer, but it is not drawing dead and the implied odds are hugely favorable ..... It seems worth a shot, at least a pitch to DOJ.

Good luck.

Webb had claims wrt both FTP and AP, IIRC.

Webb's claim
Webb's counter claim against the US
US motion to strike claim and dismiss counter claim
Memorandum of law in support of US motion
Webb's memorandum of law in opposition to US motion
US request for extension to deadline to reply
US reply memorandum of law in support of motion to strike and dismiss
Endorsed request to exceed page limit in reply memorandum
Webb's further memorandum of law in opposition to US motion to strike
Endorsed letter denying Webb's claimed relief
Memorandum and Order granting US motions to strike and dismiss

Essentially the judge just accepted the government's arguments without further comment. The issues of ownership are addressed in both of the final two links, while bailment and constructive trust are addressed only in the final link.

No matter what the DOJ might want to do, they can only stretch the regulations so far. Remission is being granted to "victims of an offense underlying the forfeiture of property, or of a related offense". The remission is paid from the property that was forfeited eitehr in relation to the specific offence which caused the victm's loss or in relation to a related offence. "Related offence is defined as "An offense committed as part of the same scheme or design, or pursuant to the same conspiracy, as was involved in the offense for which forfeiture was ordered." The government has nowhere alleged that the fraud that gave rise to the remission in FTP's case was part of any scheme of AP/UB, or that the FTP fraud was part of any conspiracy involving AP/UB. Therefore the does not seem to be any way that assets forfeited in relation to FTP's fraud on its players could be used to pay remission to AP/UB players, as things now stand. What would be required to lead to remission paymetns to AP/UB players from FTP's forfeited assets would be that the DOJ allege an offence by AP/UB against its players, and furthermore an allegation that this offence was part of the same scheme or conspiracy by which FTP defrauded its own players. That's quite a stretch.

It appears at least some of those claimants are giving up their claims.

Agreed.

Ther is no legal basis to deny remission to uncompensated victims just because they are not citizens or residents. The DoJ didn't give remission to FTP's non-US players because those players had already received access to their funds thanks to PStars. If AP/UB victims don't gain some alternative compensaton, they will be just as eligible for remission as AP/UB's US players.

Thanks.

I agree remission is a tougher row to hoe.

However, DOJ did claim and the Order recite that a player might have standing as a general creditor to pursue claims against AP/UB.

(Webb was found to have lacked standing to challenge the seizure, which is different than standing to assert a claim against the poker company.)

"Full Tilt Poker customers who, like Webb, lost access to the money stored
in their online poker accounts have filed a number of lawsuits against the company to recover their lost funds. Three of these suits are currently proceeding before this Court. I Webb has provided no reason why he cannot file a similar lawsuit against Full Tilt Poker and Absolute Poker or, alternatively, join plaintiffs in one of the existing suits"

I have no idea if the SOL has run on such creditor claims, nor whether such claims would, upon review, be classified with some priority ahead of general creditor claims. As DOJ recited in the Letter re Webb, it was early in that proceeding ...

My overall point is that a claimant to some assets of UB/AP can be authorized to be paid with assets from FTP's sale to PStars. If there are funds available to pay a priority class of unsecured creditors, like players ... maybe there is some discretion to do so. ......

Like I said, it is perhaps a one-outer, but it is not drawing dead, in my general view.

Did anyone important who has worked with FTP or PS ever work with UB/AP at any time? Before or after the Cereus merge? Not sure if that is even important or anything, but I assume any links from FTP or PS to UB/AP would count as alleged conspiracy?

Question for you:

Did you know about the cheating scandal when you were playing on UB in the days prior to Black Friday?

If YES...

Next question:

Were you aware at all (again, in the days leading up to Black Friday) that UB was owned by the same people as during the cheating days?

If YES...

Next question:

Were you aware that you were pretty much supporting these same cheaters by providing action on the site -- essentially acting as an unpaid prop?


Anyone who knowingly played there despite being aware of the same ownership being in place deserves nothing.

There is no legal precedent for this, but morally they deserve nothing.

The only people who deserve remissions from the destruction of AP/UB are the ones who had no awareness of what was going on. All of the other greedy people got what they deserved.

I quit AP/UB after being cheated there. I could have made a lot more money, but didn't, especially because the games got even better with so many pros leaving in droves. I still didn't play because I did not want to support the cheaters. LOL @ anyone who still chose to play, and is now complaining about how much they had stuck on there.

BTW, I also had a child right around Black Friday.

I imagine a lot of people are in the same position as me, UB/AP was the first site I played on and I was unaware of any cheating scandal until I deposited and started to look for poker strategies and found this site.

Then I was under the impression it was taken care of, and that all the people involved in the scandal were removed or punished for their actions. I didn't know it had the same owners. Especially after the Cereus merge, I ultimately thought it was safe because this merge gave the site credibility and I saw the site as being successful.

Do you think the merge was meant to give this impression? is now my question.

The CEREUS merger was the second reorganization or fake change of ownership designed to hide the identity or the real owners and provide false comfort to players. It is a pity you didn't pay enough attention to what was posted on 2+2 about this because a lot of people warned that this was only a front and even more warned that it might be.

IDK if I'd go so far as to say that people who lost money on AP/UB deserve nothing, but I would say their losses are due in part to not doing their homework and improperly assessing the risk.