NOt saying anyone will get their money or that they are not passing the buck. I do know I couldn't get on FTP cashier for days. Can you imagine how many requests all 3 sites are getting?

Yep. Thanks.

They've sent out all of their ambulances. UB haven't sent anything. I think it would be expected for them to get overwhelmed but if that's all there was we would expect the early requests to be sent by now.


I am. I don't understand what you mean. Please explain.

Easy......with AP/UB's first scandals, some..."SOME" people got hurt.

With this, thousands upon thousands stand to lose money and a lot more than what was stolen by AP/UB. It's also will affect how the US government looks upon online gambling when and if they decide to look at legalizing it. Having the two biggest players, PS and FTP involved in something illegal will not look good at anyone wanting to play online.

Will some "rec" player want to throw a few hundred bucks online now if they are not sure the sites are doing things legal?

I'm not saying what AP/UB did was ok and not a big deal, it was. This is a lot worse in my opinion and will have a more lasting effect.

Well, we are comparing two different kids of misbehavior:
a. Management cheating to win a lot of money from high stakes pros,
b. Management performing actions which the DoJ then interprets as money laundering which leads to the whole sites being shut down for US players.

imo, a. is worse than b. from the perspective of "what is the worse crime" however b. may have a worse effect on long-term viability of online poker and thus everyone's average EV.

One could even argue FTP/PS didn't have other choices but to do what they did if they wanted to continue to serve the US market. But the effect remains the same - we are all truly screwed (some more than others).

UB is god awful at PR plain and simple and you guys talking to support and going crazy well let me tell you, they are Costa Rican and can barely speak English so why you guys are running scared when they say certain things is mind boggling sine they probably have no idea what you are saying. This site generates hundreds of millions in revenue you really think the few million in players funds that are on there is enough for them to shut down and run away seriously ? Everyone said this site was dead after the cheating scandal everyone was 100% positive oh then what happened oh that's right they sent out refunds to people, I am not saying all refunds were 100% accurate but they determined then that staying alive was more profitable then running away with your monies, oh and when that happened there used to be high stakes action which means a lot more funds in players accounts then there is now...... I have spoken with several people close to UB/AP and have been assured on several occasions money is safe at least for non US players so everyone needs to relax I am sure if 50% of you guys cancelled your withdrawals you would start to see them processed soon. Like someone else in here stated I will gladly prop bet as well on UB paying non US customers especially if you want to give me odds. So why doesn't everyone relax and cancel their withdrawals ? then we can see what happens, the government in the US has done exactly what it wanted to accomplish here now everyone in the world is going to think twice about keep money on these sites or eve buying in. It's the USA way strike fear in people to control them and all of you and everyone in the other forums are buying right into it.

In my opinion UB is just trying to find a way to keep US players, when they know this will definitely not be possible theyre probably gonna close doors and run with our money

Thank you, I think you said it better than me. I"m not sure which is worse, but your last sentence is exactly what I mean.

Thank you

added the words you left out.

lol well played but I pay my rent in advance :P

Is anyone else still able to log on and play. i get the memo saying US players are blocked, Log on and am able to sit and play at will.

OK, I've thought about it and it makes no sense. First, we have no idea how many people are "some" because the company was not transparent in the refund process and didn't use standard public auditors to verify the work. We have no real idea how much was stolen or how much was repaid. In support of that, we have multiple instances of company officials stating mistruths including one which the DoJ actions highlight, Paul Leggett has said repeatedly that former owners/managers were no longer involved in the company, Scott Tom in particular. Joe Sebok is employed by the company, let's hear it from him.

And that is just the beginning; the isues with the scandal are well-known to those who have taken the time to look and listen. You don't get to rewrite history there.

The two market leaders engaged in activity which doesn't rise to the level of discussion if you take the position provisioning poker isn't/wasn't illegal. The bank fraud may prove interesting, but that will likely fall on the heads of one or two individuals and there are definitely problems in the prosecution of fraud where the "victim" actually makes money.

Apparently, you believe Stars and Tilt should have left the market in 2006, but we would still be here having this discussion today as others would have filled the market vacuum including UB/AP.

Comparing UB/AP's past transgressions with Stars / Tilt in finding ways to continue to serve the market is beyond ridiculous and isn't going to have bad effects down the line, it is going to force resolution to the question.

So the DoJ made an agreement with FT/PS to give them back the domain names (or at least point them where they want them) so that they can allow US players to withdraw their funds. I don't see a payment method being mentioned, however.

http://www.justice.gov/usao/nys/pres...reementspr.pdf

We'll see if UB follow suit. Would be bad news if they don't.

they probably not letting cereus do it because they are still letting us players play.

That's it of course but it's the wrong way to think about it. The deal is website for banning US players. It's UB who are rejecting this, not the DoJ.

Of course, I still don't see any info on how US players will get their money back in practice.

That is a fairly important development

"No individual player accounts were ever frozen or restrained, and each implicated poker company has at all times been free to reimburse any player's deposited funds. In fact, this Office expects the companies to return the money that U.S. players entrusted to them, and we will work with the poker companies to facilitate the return of funds to players, as today’s agreements with PokerStars and Full Tilt Poker demonstrate."

and

"The agreements also require the appointment of an independent Monitor to verify PokerStars’ and Full Tilt Poker’s compliance with the agreements. The Government stands to enter the same agreement with Absolute Poker if it so chooses."

Actually, not so fast. Full Tilt has already registered a response that even though they have an agreement, they have no way to refund US players due to the DoJ clampdown. They also say they have no way to verify whether player funds were seized in the raids. Stars doesn't seem to have the same issue and will apparently go forth with refunds.

Eleven, you seem like the most well informed poster on here. If you had to guess, what would you say our chances are that we will get paid eventually? Thanks.

One time! AP enter into that agreement!

problem : if AP enter that agreement then they go bust because noone with a choice plays there outside the US

I have no clue. There are things working against UB/AP players, though there are a few things working for.

The for part is Chief Joseph Norton was (at least on the surface) the recent owner of the companies and he shepherded the development and creation of online gaming at the Kahnawake. If the companies now walk on player refunds, Norton is going to look very seedy and his licensing agency and Internet provider services will seem even more corrupt than they already do.

Also, the company would have a terrible time holding trust with overseas players in such a case since they would know their money is always at risk. And the company would have a more difficult time preparing the brands for sale under the cloud of player funds theft (as superjez just pointed out as well).

Plus, I imagine the DoJ needs to have the company provide refunds so it doesn't end up with a legal action brought by players against the seized funds. Not sure if this is legally credible, but players who believe they have broken no laws would definitely seem to have a claim on those funds.

The problem is, UB/AP probably cannot be much of a company with only overseas customers and it appears they are being squeezed out of the US market. If they don't re-open to US players soon (deposits, new signups), I would think the writing is on the wall.

I cashed out 12 days ago on UB
do you guys think i will get paid?
should be hitting any day now normally

I am not sure if this helps people feel more comfortable atm but friends of mine who are props on the site have received their prop payment for last week, the payment is directly into their poker accounts but they are paid from the site. They obviously are still unable to withdrawal but I mean if they were going to flee why would they waste time paying those out and not delay them ? Could mean something could mean nothing just throwing it out there.

5mins ago.

XX: Hi, this morning I observed an agreement between DOJ and FTP / Stars to return player money in exchange for leaving US market.
XX: When / if will UB / AP be entering into a similar agreement?
VIP: Thank you for contacting RAISE. One moment please
VIP: Currenlty our Legal team is working on this. However we still don't have any further information about this deal at the moment.
XX: this is not acceptable
XX: have you opened up UMW for us customers yet?
VIP: I'm sorry XX, unfortunately for us, the terms haven't changed. We are still waiting to have more details about this. As soon as we have any news we will let all our players know
XX: surely you can understand the frustration as the other two companies have reached amicable settlement which ensures their long term viability and makes players whole
XX: my concern is that ub has a differenet perspective on the potential for future licensing, and, as such is taking an unseemly approach to this problem
XX: essentiallly there has been no update since friday
VIP: I certainly understand. As a poker player I do understand this is really a bad situation. However I've been reading a lot about this problem since last Friday, and I'm sure that this is going to be beneficial for Poker Online. However we are exactly in the same position you are. We are waiting for details to know what's next.
XX: it will be good for ftp, zynga, stars, and harrahs
XX: i'm more concerned, however, with the result on ap/ub
XX: if you've been studying online you are aware of the tenor of the conversation
XX: the outlook on being paid back varies greatly by site
XX: 2 sites are now clear
XX: one is not
XX : i can't help but wonder why
VIP: I totally understand your point. It would be foolish for us not to accept the terms. But unfortunately the legal team is working on this.
VIP: I'm sorry I can't give you any more details

If they intend to flee then payments into their poker accounts mean nothing. Unfortunately.

I just kind of think that since the people sued by DoJ are different ones from (allegedly) currently owning/running Cereus, they have more to lose than if they were looking at 50 years in jail already.

people on tables, are waiting from last week to get cashouts? that are canadian

they just stopped proccessing them? are they not going to pay at all?

wtf are they doing