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Old 08-01-2012, 02:13 PM   #1
bizzle03
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http://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanva...winnings-back/

This article suggests possibilities that are so ridiculous I'm amazed they are even considering them. I know there is a PPA action thread but I think this deserves its own thread and immediate attention.

I believe they will do the right thing in the end, but just to make sure, everyone should contact the DOJ and politely raise any of these points:

1) It would be fundamentally unfair for the DOJ to facilitate non-Americans retrieving their whole balance while leaving Americans with any less. The DOJ exists to protect Americans. We pay taxes so that they protect us and bring justice to those who defraud us. To only give us deposits back would make them no better than the people who defrauded us.

2) Paying out deposits only would be fundamentally unfair, the fraud we were victims of deprived us of our full account balances, not just our deposits. But for the fraud, we would have our full account balances. If they want to live up to their name, the Department of Justice, they must make us whole.

3) You have more than enough money from this settlement to pay us off. No explanation will suffice for not making us whole.

4) Anything else you can think of.

Contact them through any or all of these options:

https://twitter.com/TheJusticeDept

https://twitter.com/SDNYnews

https://www.facebook.com/DOJ

SDNY Civil Division
(212) 637-2800

Department of Justice Main Switchboard - 202-514-2000

Office of the Attorney General Public Comment Line - 202-353-1555

Last edited by Kevmath; 08-01-2012 at 05:01 PM.
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Old 08-01-2012, 02:15 PM   #2
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Re: The Big Question For Full Tilt's U.S. Players: Will They Get Their Poker Winnings Back?

yes they will
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Old 08-01-2012, 02:15 PM   #3
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Re: The Big Question For Full Tilt's U.S. Players: Will They Get Their Poker Winnings Back?

Interesting read! They certainly couldn't give a person back their "total deposits". Article has statement from PPA why would they allow Stars to refund amounts on deposit.

/agree

Yes to at least some $$ returned

Last edited by BEANO52; 08-01-2012 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 08-01-2012, 02:18 PM   #4
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Re: The Big Question For Full Tilt's U.S. Players: Will They Get Their Poker Winnings Back?

omg if the government ****s us again.....
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Old 08-01-2012, 02:18 PM   #5
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Re: The Big Question For Full Tilt's U.S. Players: Will They Get Their Poker Winnings Back?

US players are net losers, it would cost more to refund deposits rather than balances, not to mention the logistical nightmare of figuring all of that out. I will be absolutely shocked if compensation is based on anything other than current balances, with issues such as phantom deposits being the only exception. Notice that the deadline for US vs ROW categorization was set for June 29 and not April 14th, if they really wanted to punish US players, it would have been the other way around.
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Old 08-01-2012, 02:18 PM   #6
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Re: The Big Question For Full Tilt's U.S. Players: Will They Get Their Poker Winnings Back?

0 on FT but did deposit over 3k, means victim
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Old 08-01-2012, 02:20 PM   #7
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Re: The Big Question For Full Tilt's U.S. Players: Will They Get Their Poker Winnings Back?

it's so upsetting that this is actually a semi-legitimate concern
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Old 08-01-2012, 02:21 PM   #8
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Re: The Big Question For Full Tilt's U.S. Players: Will They Get Their Poker Winnings Back?

So gross that this is even up for discussion. Going to be a sad day if I find out I've been waiting all this time for nothing.
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Old 08-01-2012, 02:22 PM   #9
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Re: The Big Question For Full Tilt's U.S. Players: Will They Get Their Poker Winnings Back?

Hell yeah durrr could get his $50 deposit back while Guy gets millions, seems right.
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Old 08-01-2012, 02:22 PM   #10
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Re: The Big Question For Full Tilt's U.S. Players: Will They Get Their Poker Winnings Back?

So what else could they potentially base payments on besides account balances?

Last edited by WildBobAA; 08-01-2012 at 02:23 PM. Reason: they could potentialy base it on how much someone deposited? lol wtf
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Old 08-01-2012, 02:24 PM   #11
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Pretty scary read :/
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Old 08-01-2012, 02:25 PM   #12
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Re: The Big Question For Full Tilt's U.S. Players: Will They Get Their Poker Winnings Back?

The writing was on the wall when they inserted the phrase "petition for compensation" in their settlement statement rather then just stating players would get paid their balances. It wouldn't surprise me to see some sort of very onerous petition process where it's up to the players to provide various proofs of deposit and banking records (many of which are now years old and no longer available for those who didn't save everything) to get any of their money back. Every dollar not paid to the players is another dollar in the pocket of the DOJ - they have huge incentive to shaft.
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Old 08-01-2012, 02:28 PM   #13
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Re: The Big Question For Full Tilt's U.S. Players: Will They Get Their Poker Winnings Back?

lol, something else just hit me.

Suppose i had a deposit bonus of $500 match. Wonder how they would deal with that?

Over thinking... I'm sure it would be based on account balances only, obviously.
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Old 08-01-2012, 02:28 PM   #14
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Re: The Big Question For Full Tilt's U.S. Players: Will They Get Their Poker Winnings Back?

Not trying to piss on the people hoping for a refund, but....

I've been practicing law for 15 years and the gov't has exceptionally solid grounds to not return winnings. You can argue until you're blue as to the legitimacy of the law, your interpretation of the law, etc. Until they're challenged in federal court, the only opinion that matters is the DoJ.

That's why the PPA is arguing inconsistency and impracticability as opposed to illegality.

I'd be shocked if the DoJ doesn't just pay out account balances but they definitely have the law on their side if they chose not to. It would take a few players with deep pockets (or big losses who can get lawyers on a contingency) to challenge if the DoJ does go that route.
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Old 08-01-2012, 02:32 PM   #15
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Re: The Big Question For Full Tilt's U.S. Players: Will They Get Their Poker Winnings Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dudd View Post
US players are net losers, it would cost more to refund deposits rather than balances, not to mention the logistical nightmare of figuring all of that out. I will be absolutely shocked if compensation is based on anything other than current balances, with issues such as phantom deposits being the only exception. Notice that the deadline for US vs ROW categorization was set for June 29 and not April 14th, if they really wanted to punish US players, it would have been the other way around.
I agree. Your last point is especially important. The only US players that relocated after BF to continue playing poker online were winners who presumably had more in their accounts then they'd deposited. If the government was trying to screw players out of their profits they could have made the date for moving April 14 instead of June 29 and all of those big winners who moved after BF would be out all their profits.
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Old 08-01-2012, 02:33 PM   #16
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Re: The Big Question For Full Tilt's U.S. Players: Will They Get Their Poker Winnings Back?

Stop trolling. Forbes wants clicks and viewership and has other motives to print bull**** like this and you are just feeding them reasons to sensationalize this more in the future by having this thread.

Please just think logically. Why would the DOJ guarantee ROW payouts and not its own citizens? The DOJ is in place to protect the US citizens not screw them. Any other logic doesn't make a lick of sense.
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Old 08-01-2012, 02:36 PM   #17
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Re: The Big Question For Full Tilt's U.S. Players: Will They Get Their Poker Winnings Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiJon View Post
Why would the DOJ guarantee ROW payouts and not its own citizens? The DOJ is in place to protect the US citizens not screw them. Any other logic doesn't make a lick of sense.
Because it wasn't illegal in the rest of the world, and, if it was, it's not up to the DoJ to police the rest of the world.

If the DoJ deems the funds were won in an illegal activity (I'm not going to argue whether it was or wasn't illegal, that's the DoJ's interpretation until challenged) they can withhold all profits. Can is the operative word.

This is why you pay your lobbyists. Better hope PPA has their ear and is doing a good job.
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Old 08-01-2012, 02:39 PM   #18
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Re: The Big Question For Full Tilt's U.S. Players: Will They Get Their Poker Winnings Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiJon View Post
Stop trolling. Forbes wants clicks and viewership and has other motives to print bull**** like this and you are just feeding them reasons to sensationalize this more in the future by having this thread.

Please just think logically. Why would the DOJ guarantee ROW payouts and not its own citizens? The DOJ is in place to protect the US citizens not screw them. Any other logic doesn't make a lick of sense.
DoJ guarantee ROW? its the Pokerstars that guarentees it.
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Old 08-01-2012, 02:40 PM   #19
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Re: The Big Question For Full Tilt's U.S. Players: Will They Get Their Poker Winnings Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiJon View Post
Stop trolling. Forbes wants clicks and viewership and has other motives to print bull**** like this and you are just feeding them reasons to sensationalize this more in the future by having this thread.

Please just think logically. Why would the DOJ guarantee ROW payouts and not its own citizens? The DOJ is in place to protect the US citizens not screw them. Any other logic doesn't make a lick of sense.
If it was anyone outside of Vardi, I would agree with you, but this guy has a really solid history, so I'm inclined to believe this is a legitimate concern.
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Old 08-01-2012, 02:41 PM   #20
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Re: The Big Question For Full Tilt's U.S. Players: Will They Get Their Poker Winnings Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FyteOn View Post
Because it wasn't illegal in the rest of the world, and, if it was, it's not up to the DoJ to police the rest of the world.

If the DoJ deems the funds were won in an illegal activity (I'm not going to argue whether it was or wasn't illegal, that's the DoJ's interpretation until challenged) they can withhold all profits. Can is the operative word.

This is why you pay your lobbyists. Better hope PPA has their ear and is doing a good job.
Playing poker online is not illegal at the federal level in the United States. The DOJ has never argued this, and likely never will. How many times does this need to be said?
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Old 08-01-2012, 02:41 PM   #21
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Re: The Big Question For Full Tilt's U.S. Players: Will They Get Their Poker Winnings Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargper View Post
DoJ guarantee ROW? its the Pokerstars that guarentees it.
It was part of the deal with PS and the reason why GBT fell through
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Old 08-01-2012, 02:42 PM   #22
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Re: The Big Question For Full Tilt's U.S. Players: Will They Get Their Poker Winnings Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiJon View Post
Please just think logically. Why would the DOJ guarantee ROW payouts and not its own citizens?
Because the DOJ gets to keep all the money it doesn't pay out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiJon View Post
The DOJ is in place to protect the US citizens not screw them. Any other logic doesn't make a lick of sense.
If you think the DOJ exists to "protect" US citizens you are beyond delusional. It's simple amazing how many people think the DOJ is some sort of benevolent white knight looking out for their best interests. The DOJ doesn't care about you, and would just as soon as prosecute you and fine you for playing poker if it thought it could get away with it.
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Old 08-01-2012, 02:43 PM   #23
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Re: The Big Question For Full Tilt's U.S. Players: Will They Get Their Poker Winnings Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FyteOn View Post
Because it wasn't illegal in the rest of the world, and, if it was, it's not up to the DoJ to police the rest of the world.

If the DoJ deems the funds were won in an illegal activity (I'm not going to argue whether it was or wasn't illegal, that's the DoJ's interpretation until challenged) they can withhold all profits. Can is the operative word.

This is why you pay your lobbyists. Better hope PPA has their ear and is doing a good job.
I have no idea what technically is possible under the law, I just see nothing in how this case has gone so far that points to them wanting to screw over players. They allowed Pokerstars to pay out balances, they would have allowed FTP/AP to do the same if they weren't scams, they let Pokerstars put a significant portion of their fine towards compensating victims, they allowed winning players who moved out of the country after April 15th to be compensated by Stars and not the DOJ, etc etc. Until they break from this pattern, I see no reason to believe that they will try and screw over winning players, especially given the likelihood that it will cost them more to do it.
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Old 08-01-2012, 02:45 PM   #24
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Re: The Big Question For Full Tilt's U.S. Players: Will They Get Their Poker Winnings Back?

That article was irresponsibly stupid and it's author should be fired. The illegality of online poker had little to nothing to do with the lawsuit, which was about defrauding banks and customers. The notion of people having their deposits paid back, which would entail an astronomical sum, is beyond ridiculous, and would entail that someone who cashed out their entire roll before BF should receive the same amount as someone who had their whole roll locked up. Yeah...
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Old 08-01-2012, 02:52 PM   #25
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Re: The Big Question For Full Tilt's U.S. Players: Will They Get Their Poker Winnings Back?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiJon View Post
Stop trolling. Forbes wants clicks and viewership and has other motives to print bull**** like this and you are just feeding them reasons to sensationalize this more in the future by having this thread.

Please just think logically. Why would the DOJ guarantee ROW payouts and not its own citizens? The DOJ is in place to protect the US citizens not screw them. Any other logic doesn't make a lick of sense.
Since when has our government been known to act logically?

Did you miss this part of the the part of the article where he claims people in the DOJ say the decision hasn't been made yet whether we will be receiving "winnings" or not?

Quote:
The big question for Full Tilt’s U.S. players: will they get their poker winnings back? Several sources familiar with the situation say no decision on this vital issue has been made, but there are people at the Department of Justice who are uncomfortable with the idea of paying U.S. players money that was won in online poker games played on Full Tilt’s web site. “The section that is in charge of the remission fund hasn’t decided that question clearly and that is the next big issue,” said Jeff Ifrah, a lawyer who worked for Full Tilt Poker.
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