+1 or at least its dying because of this. its become a game of who has the better software and the understanding + bankroll to use it.

if all software was banned those still using it will stick out like sore thumbs for running godlike and having too high and steady winrates when everybody else fluctuates. u really think they can resist their own greed when they'd be able to print money? they arent happy settling for less thats what caused them to go to such extremes to begin with. its not for the fame or to better their skills it all boils down to making money

Sorry guys, but unfortunately there is very little you can do about the tools people have used to improve their games. With that said, I do agree with the sentiment. It's ruined poker and basically everything that attracted people to the game.

It was once a game where it was a battle of wits. You could try and think about situations and try to improve from experience but it was still your brain against your opponents. Now, with all this solver software stuff it's completely different. People plugging in situations to have numbers spat out at them (obviously oversimplifying and takes a lot of work) so they can robotically know how to play takes away what was once fun about the game.

But again, there is little that can be done about this and it is the somewhat natural progression of a situation where there was a lot of money to be made at a time where software evolved to be useful. The movement to GTO play is so destructive to poker but for a long time people didn't quite realize why. The analogy I like to make in other discussions is chess. People like chess, but no one wants to bet money on it and it's not very fun to play people who are not at your level. The reason people wanted to put money on poker and play better players was because they liked the challenge of trying to out think them and there was at least some possibility they could do so. When poker becomes chess and players are aware that the top guys can play in a way where they don't really even have to give a **** who is playing against them because they cannot be exploited it takes away the human element that makes poker unique. It is precisely that mano e mano feeling that made it fun for people and playing against players that are closer and closer to bots destroys that feeling entirely.

right, because chess was a gambling game before computers

Nothing is preventing live players from using training software to learn how to play better.

Your argument is flawed i guess.. bc a software that tells and maybe even visualises the frequency and rangecomposition in any given spot (yes samples for river may need a bit longer) would actually tell you what to do if V x/j r.
And at least you have an enormous advantage figuring out villains strategy and reacting accordingly.

no u

yes but the difference is they arent using the programs at the table or on another screen next to them at the table. they are forced to learn with their training tools and then remember what they learned and put it into practice while at the casino (or where ever the live game is) and live games shouldnt evolve into pulling out your smart phone to pull up charts/software that suggest what you should do in a situation.

thats why you still have many people who will still play live and not online even though they know their are sharks at the live tables too because a shark is still more prone to human error than somebody with software which instantly tells them a persons playing habits better than their mind could ever analyze/remember.

live poker will die too if software aids are allowed at the tables. what makes poker so entertaining to the majority of the masses is the human on human element. take that away and almost none of the fish will play. it will just be reg on reg battles where some regs/pros suddenly become the fish to those other regs who have the better software aids and can use them right

I tend to doubt the software in question (the software that was used as a reason why Ben could not coach Doug) was a game-time aid. Rather, I'm guessing the issue was that Ben had gained strategy knowledge from using the software and was obligated by agreement with his associate to not disseminate that knowledge.

From context, this is the most likely thing.
But don't let that stop these fine folks from getting to pretend they know anything that they are ranting about.

Of course it wasn't an in-game aid they're talking about. The most obvious/clear reason is Doug would have emphasised that.

Sorry, but judging from this reply, my example wasn't clear. Chess has always had this problem because it is such a transparent skill game. It has basically no gamble factor and very little need for exploitative play. If you are a significantly higher rated player than your opponent, you basically always win, so having a gambling spirit doesn't work well with chess.

Poker, however, once did have a better set of conditions for a gambling environment even if the better players still crush. And sure, a fish can still beat you in a 30 minute session (rarely), but my only point was that the studying and evolution of poker knowledge has gotten to the point that the mental game feeling around poker has dissolved quite a bit. I don't resent you or any other top player for getting much better and making the game feel hopeless for a recreational player but if someone gets there from having access to insider software, that just sucks more. It's still their right. They are entitled to their winnings, it's just not as impressive as if you rise to the top without any access to the discussed software. Either way, the way it's trended is inevitable though the amount of time it has taken could have varied and all I was saying is this evolution is very bad for recreational interest in putting money into this game. They used to feel like they were playing a human trying to out think them and now they feel like they are playing IBM's Watson.

If you use HUDs, sharkscope etc against recs who have no idea about those tools and see no issue with it, then you have no reason to complain about a 'plo dream machine' you have no clue about

Basically online poker needs to ban software of any kind including HUDs for the future to look any good.

they can't ban software that are not even useable in real time, it's basically using computing power to solve math problems and memorizing those solutions

wrong thread!

This. We don't need yet another "ban the HUDs!" thread.

This is the so ignorant. Really, bro? Recs that see no issue with it? HUDs, sharkscope, etc. don't tell you what to do or his range in a situation when your opponent has check-raised you on the turn.

There's a massive difference in those websites and HUDs (HUDs these days are almost dream machines themselves, it's out of hand/control, recs that don't know about HUDs soon will... There's no way they will keep depositing without doing some research, it may happen .05% of the time with depositors) and what Ben T., Ike, Ben's Programmer, etc are involved in. I'm speculating... I don't know for sure, but I would bet on it.

people, who say that huds are unfair aids, where are your millions? what should happen in your life for u to understand that huds, solvers are useless without knowledge of poker and hard work on your strategy? when u say that top players are gto perfect it shows how far u r from understanding what u r talking about. all u offer is to forbid development of poker skill like "don't use a pen and a piece of paper to work on your ranges, u r killing poker". developing complexity of a game is natural. and the real problem here is the rake. since edges tightening and rake increases there is more "bumhunting" in poker each year. cause to win money u need to beat the field with a big margin to cover rake. so with decreasing liquidity every year rooms still do evrything to keep increasing their revenues/profits sacrifising players' experience and future of industry. for that purposes they introduces changes that tighten edges even more. and it's all about draining money share from winning players. so my point is that it is the real problem that can kill poker much earlier than the moment it will be solved

Again, we don't need yet another HUD derail - it's been done to death in dozens of threads. Probably time to shut this thread down if that's all it's going to be about.

Ugh, that's not really a good solution. Private software that is potentially the driving factor behind millions being won by a very select few is a very big deal to the poker world. Closing the thread because some are derailing it isn't the way to deal with this. Why not just mod the thread and ban those from posting in it that derail while deleting said posts? I obviously completely agree with you that this devolving into a discussion of HUDs is totally out of place but I do think the topic itself has the potential to be a pretty massive deal to the poker world so perhaps more mod effort than normal for thread issues should be undertaken to keep it an open discussion.

And Doug confirmed again in the other thread his awareness of special software when they were going to share coaching.

That's the plan, of course. I'll be deleting the derail shortly.

Of course almost all of the pros have been working with custom software for years. Ben86, Ike, Sauce, the WCG group, the russian 6max guys, OTB, TCfromUB, if you know where to look on 2+2, there has been not so subtle hints about this topic, disseminated in many threads pertaining to GTO play. And that's perfectly fine! Just another, more efficient way of doing off-the-table work, like books, videos, hand reviews, discussions with poker friends. These dream machines should mostly be custom variations of the commercial GTO solvers that went public last year.

This witch hunt is ridiculous, grow up.

Should be able to use any advantage in the poker world to gain an edge... At all costs.. They created or got there hands on software that was better then anyone else has... Fair game imo.. Sucks for the boys that did it the old fashioned way.. is what it is

+1, agree.

The game will always gonna keep evolving and the world is gonna keep moving too.
IMO those who thinks the game isn't fair just because someone have their own software that they made using their own resources are not going to able to keep up.

and the highstakes guys who have their own dream machine usually doesn't play with "fishes" rather they play with regs who i'm sure they have a clue about it.