What is your "defense" of him ? We are not talking about sending a person to Jail w/out a trial. Do you believe he DID NOT take player funds to buy homes & cars & float money to his Vegas Friends ?

You either believe that, or your dont. Or.......is Howard the real "victim" here.

Shame on us for not wanting to see Howard in our Poker Room(s). Poor Howard.

Damn... you can put me in the same boat then because when I was 10 I took a dollar left as a tip at a restaurant so I could play video games.

Your whole rant was ****ing ******ed.

signed

as long as they ban ferg and the gang too if they have the cheek to show their faces

+ 1. On the one hand, I am loathe to defend HL in any way, shape, or form. But also I agree that this sort of mob-mentality (even if just expressed in the form of a petition) will prove a slippery slope if Aria bans based on a request from players. There are a lot of posts on here saying that anyone who had anything to do with FTP should be banned. So are we going to ban Ivey from the Ivey Room? It's very hard to know where to draw the line. How many signatures should it take to ban a player? Who decides this? Aria? That's a scary thought. Does Nick De Villa decide how many signatures it takes to get someone banned? That's even scarier! There was this one douche who wanted me banned from a poker room in the Deep South about 15 years ago for being "a ***." To him, that was a "crime against God," and he HATED that I sat in the same games with him. And you know what, y'all, I bet he could have gotten a LOT of signatures supporting his position at that time in Mississippi...

And I have to say that the idea that the Aria should listen to the people "filing the petition" because that would be the "democratic" thing to do or whatever is a JOKE. I mean, it's not a democracy. It's a privately owned and operated business. If there is enough demand for something like no-smoking, e.g., the casino will implement the players' wants. But that doesn't mean it's for the players to make that decision whether there's smoking or no smoking. That's silly.

And language like "filing a petition" makes it sound more fake "legal," like the petition is being "filed" to a court, administrative agency, or other government entity. It's not actually being "filed" anywhere. Once De Villa has his page all filled up with names, he will just drop it with some Aria employee; I seriously doubt that the Aria will--at that stage--be providing De Villa a date-stamped copy for his records, y'all.

And I guess my other problem with an Aria ban would be that HL didn't perpetrate the alleged "offenses" at the Aria. I mean, do we really want casinos to be in the business of playing the morality police? Do we want them banning folks just because we don't like them (even if they are crooks)? I agree with the dude who posted that it's not Aria's place to ban a fish. Let all the fish play--even the crooks! And let's just take their money, y'all. If someone does something wrong ON THE PROPERTY, that's one thing, but banning for off-site activities... I'm sure there's precedent, but I can't think of it. What other villains have been banned BY THE CASINOS (as opposed to the Gaming Commission) for off-site, immoral acts? Was it popular demand that led to the ban? Y'all already know this is all gonna come down to the Aria's bottom-line, and that's it. They'll perform a cost-benefit analysis, and that'll be that. Period.

MY bottom line: There's been a lot of dirty cash making it's way into brick and mortar poker rooms for a long, long time. I, for one, don't want casinos to start banning fish with cash, even if I don't care for how those fish came into their money.

AND FOR THE RECORD: I LOST MONEY ON FTP, TOO. Not as much as some, but enough to hurt. If I saw HL, I'd kick him right in the nuts. No doubt. And hard enough to make it hurt!

The problem is the people that play in his games can afford to because of him. Ivey should ban him. It's his room isn't it?

Beginning to think the "mainstream" Poker Media/People are afraid to condemn Howard Lederer & friends & call it what it was

What are they afraid of ?

Howard has the right to play anywhere he wants. The regs at the Aria need to mind their own business and worry about their own lives.

He definitely shouldn't be allowed to play until U.S players get paid period

its not up to Aria to ban Howard. if the players have such a problem with him, grow a sack and do something about it to his face.

No he doesn't have a "right" to play wherever he wants. Casinos can ban anyone they want for any reason, you don't have a "right" to be there. If 100 players say they will never come back due to 1 person being there, it seems pretty easy to me what the obvious solution would be....

So the Aria managers should sit back and stay out of it and let potential verbal/physical attacks potentially happen?

I am sure that's not what Aria or the Majority of the Player Pool wants. (presuming your insinuating physical confrontation(s). This is why the accused faced with exceptional evidence against, are often asked to step aside while/until legal proceedings occur.

Common practise in the USA.

Beginning to think the Mainstream Poker Media/Social Media Stars/Forums/are too afraid to back this on behalf of the common player.

Too afraid of repercussions I suspect.

1. There aren't many players banned from poker rooms. Russ Hamilton for example, I don't believe he is banned from poker rooms despite what he has done. And while no final decision may have been made, Aria has been allowing Lederer to play there thus far, so the thought would be that he is currently not banned and (potentially) many customers do not want him playing there.

2. I think a boycott is a bad idea, since it isn't likely to be successful and is more likely to isolate the one side from management and from meaningful discussions. But if a boycott had a chance of being successful, I would imagine that good management would recognize this and just ban the player that has had such a negative impact on the other players, the casino's customers.

There's no dispute that Full Tilt still accepted deposits well after Lederer admittedly knew about the problems and shortfalls they were facing. That fact alone should allow you to give the side that wants him banned a little bit of leeway on the specifics of their actions. Boycotts are likely worthless and misguided, but the real point is that many players do not want Lederer around right now, and I think they have some very valid points on why don't want him around.

What about Chris Ferguson and Rafe Furst?

They're just as guilty

Why don't they ask the people in Ivey's room about it?I'm sure they're happy to have such a nit in the game. $5/$10 pros just angry they can't find a spot that easy imo. This isn't a defence on Howard btw.
By all means the players who are pissed should vote with their feet but in this generation where you can make a petition online for anything it loses a ton of weight and respectability.
Recreational players (fish) will go to where there's a game they want to play. If there's a mass exoddus from the Aria to the Venetian/Bellagio etc a simple phone call telling them why their poker room is empty will let them know why.
Imo stop pissing around with the petition and just stop playing there. If you talk to people who feel the same way they'll do the same, stop trying to gather signatures before you leave. What's better? one person with a pen and a piece of paper or 10 people with voices?

I think this is a terrible idea and fail to see what it would accomplish or why it would be appropriate.

Howard could even be a good guy, I have no idea. It's just his actions at the company at the very least allowed some terrible things to happen to players, so I don't think he should be playing alongside them while many still suffer as a result of his action (or inaction).

Making your point in steps, starting with contacting management and letting them know what you want and why is likely to be more effective and require a lot less potential harm and permanent negativity on average.

Something like:

1) Talk to fellow players and get their opinions on the matter.

2) With heavy support in favor of the ban, take a group of respected regular players and approach the decision maker in management and inform them of support of the ban with clear reasoning on why.

3) Give management some time to make a decision and keep communication open and friendly the entire time while stressing the wide support for this ban.

4) If management fails to ban the player and fails to give a satisfactory reason and the players support a boycott, notify management of a potential boycott.

5) If nothing changes, boycott, while notifying the poker media and other poker rooms of this decision.

That gives the poker room management every opportunity to give the customers what they want.

obviously not, I hope you're capable of making judgement calls between kids stealing money for candy and bank robers

this entire campaign is one out of rage, its not consistent at all. We all hate Howard, but why isnt there a petition for Furst and Jesus? What about Ivey and Benyamine who borrowed so much but arent paying back? Lindgren?

Chino Rheem is still welcome everywhere

Should there have been one for Slim and his child abuse claims?

This idea is ******ed and born from the idea that someone just wants to make a stand for something for some reason. It changes nothing, gets nothing back for the players and wont prevent anything again

If you want to make Howard feel bad, drop an orange juice on his lap next time hes in the room

a lot of ppl can't recognize the grey area between black & white, especially when it comes to a multidimensional scale

anyway ... i think HL is 'guilty' in some way and i hope he gets convicted, but the petition is worthless. i wouldn't mind if players really show HL that they don't like him, but putting pressure on the aria doesn't see the right way

This doesn't mean no one loses money when a bank gets robbed. The bank or their insurance company covering the losses means they are the ones who were stolen from. Banks and insurance companies are owned by real people who didn't deserve to be robbed either.

So how do you suggest them showing him they don't like him? None of us want to see or should condone acts of violence. So what is the proper way?

"None of us" doesn't include Daniel Negreanu, by the way.

The easiest way to get back the money he stole from you is to play at the same table with him.

i think a 'we punish a casino, when someone we don't like plays' isn't the right way.

i've no good solution, but there are ways to shwo howie to gtfo

e.g. when he busts. everyone in the room stands up and signs:



this is imo okay, dragging him out and lynching him is bad

there was also the idea, that everyone against HL should bullies him at the table w/ thinktanking and requesting the mucked cards etc ...


anyway: if lederer will be convicted (even he don't gets prison time), i think a petition is something, regs should support!

but just my 2cts

i agree