Isn't the ability to "fast fold" pretty much 100% of the reason to play zoom?

As for getting 50 people to work together for a marginal advantage... meh. I'll take my chances.

Seems like it'd be quite easy for stars to detect colluders having a (even slightly) too high PFR%, in spots when most/all of players ahead of them have fast-folded

I'd feel reassured enough by the deterrent of stars commenting here 'yeah we're monitoring the games, have security checks in place, and will lifetime ban all colluders'

Agree this should be fairly easy to detect.

Yeah. I can't imagine doing all this would be worth it. I'll take my chances too.

There’s no doubt this is a technically possible collusion strategy. But to gain any sort of edge will lead to a pattern which can be detected by Pokerstars security. So it’s important that Pokerstars security is on the lookout for suspicious patterns.

This is a totally different kind of collusion which will be nearly impossible to detect. The people colluding don't know who they are colluding with and don't know their cards.

I can't think of any reliable way to detect this collusion. Let's suppose that to detect it PokerStars looks at the correlation between VPIP and how many of their opponents Fast Folded. Players who used the software would raise and call more often when they knew that opponents ahead of them were going to fold. However, the same is true for good players who aren't using the software. Good players will predict when their opponents are going to fold ahead of them, so will have a VPIP that correlates strongly with the number of players who Fast Folded.

There's no way to tell the difference with a good player and a player that is using the software. This is what makes the exploit so deadly.

It's fairly simple. For example pre flop a player is on the btn, and over a large sample opens more often than normal when the small blind has fast folded. Do the same sort of analysis with other spots, and should be detectable if Stars are looking for it.

Yup, those 72o blind-steals would be impossible for Stars security to distinguish from the "regular" 72o raises that the good players are always doing from UTG.

Like someone has already said, its a non issue. Sure I can appear at one table at 10:30 and 14 seconds having been at a table at 10:30 and 12 seconds. But that doesnt mean I fast folded the first table for sure, I could well be playing more than one Zoom table.

This is not a problem and OP you are not the first person to consider it.

while I agree its less vunerable if you are playing 4 tables.

What if you wrote a mini-exploit

With FTPs rush poker it said how many tables a player was playing.

Lets assume you are on the BTN and a player playing in the SB (playing only one table) appears on one of your other 3 tables. (scraped by an automatic program)

Its safe to assume the SB has fast folded so you would almost certainly get the 66%+ folds from the BB to make raising ATC hugely profitable.

Knowing the SB has folded HAS to add to your edge in this situation.

This is hypothetical but im sure people smarter than me can come up with other senarios where even just using the info scraped from the 3 other tables might give you an additional edge.

If they are manually going through every single hand, yes it would seem strange. But they don't have the manpower to trawl through every single hand. They would need software to detect if a player was cheating so that they could then manually review the hands to confirm if the player was cheating. I don't know how that software could reliably detect if someone was using the exploit. They need to have a completely different set of tools to detect if someone was using the exploit I talk about - the tools they have for normal collusion wouldn't help them.

Karganeth, this would be very easy to detect.

If they wanted to check to see if a player was doing this, then they would look at his opening percentage as a function of how many people have quick folded.

if players have no knowledge of how many people have quick folded it should be pretty constant. I would look at UTG opens only, say. might be 10% or 50% but the issue is over a large sample it should be constant for any amount of quick folding.

if players do have knowledge, it should rapidly increase and would be close to 100% when there are a lot of quick folders.

any lag would get automatically banned for being better post-flop and opening a wider range?

what if my entire table is 10/8 so I raise wider by LOOKING AT MY HUD
and they happen to fast-fold because they're nits and they don't like playing marginal hands

now obviously I have a much higher PFR% against nits
nits also have a higher fast fold % than regular people who play a normal range of hands
so obviously when I exploit low VPIP players they'll fastfold more often and I'll be raising more often, so I'm obviously cheating

but except I'm not, I'm only using the information from my own database

you are talking about a single sample, even though you play on many different table types, you still reach an average, yes?

lets say, after 50k hands, on a standard 6max table your UTG PRF was 15% on average

then you move to zoom, and your stats look like this, with thousands of hands for each.

___________UTG PFR
0 QuickFold___15%
1 QuickFold____20
3 QF 50%
4 QF 100%

wouldnt you think something fishy is going on given that we should have no knowledge of how many people quickfold?


obviously not every player type quickfolds with the same frequency, nits would most probably quick fold a whole lot more than lags, but this wouldnt be hard to control for.