pretty sure this is now the most cringeworthy thread on all the internet, so at least we have that going

You my friend have clearly never encountered bronies.

If you think this is a productive approach to take, you're very mistaken. Sorry you aren't pleased that mods don't read every post on the forums and follow the entire history of every poster to determine if they genuinely believe what they post or if they are trolling, but posts like these do nothing to sway me (or probably any other mod) one way or the other.

Don't be so sure about that. I give a LOT of benefit of the doubt to someone that posts in a manner that couple possibly be genuine or trolling - I'm not convinced I should be trying to determine what is in someone's mind, and tend to agree somewhat with this:

That's not to say my approach is absolutely correct; perhaps banning suspected trolls quicker would be best. But when there are very few posters taking a different point of view, I think it's important to err on the side of caution in an effort to prevent this becoming a forum where the majority can shout down others and get them banned for posting unpopular opinions. I don't suggest that's necessarily what's happening in this particular case; I'm just providing my reasoning for not snap-banning those who appear to some to be trolls.

Actually, no one is on trial. A thread was being derailed, and I moved the derail over here.

This is the deal:

Very well said.

No one person is solely responsible for the degradation of the community; that's ridiculous. And yes, "the community" can move on just fine whether or not there are one or two, or more, people posting in a fashion that you feel is detrimental to the game.

Your infraction for jumping back into the VIP thread to call out PD is probably going to be your one and only warning, given that you have been banned so many times before. I've left your account alone for the most part in spite of all your prior bans, since you seemed to be making an effort to change your posting style, and I think you might actually have something positive to contribute, but you're starting to slip back into your old habits.

Also, PD is down to his last chance after an infraction for the silly email derail of the VIP thread that I've since (mostly) deleted.

He reminds me a little bit of the Nash guy, but there's been no mention of PSFBIDOJ, so maybe not.

Hi Bobo,

You have always seemed to me like a fair mod, so I was honestly quite surprised when I received this infraction. From my perspective, it seemed like what happened occurred like this and in this order:

1) Since I received the email, I "assumed the obvious" that the email had been given out to everyone. There are several reasons why I made this assumption:

a) Emails for big changes like this in the past (such as SN/SNE cuts; switch to VIP steps/starscoin etc.) were sent out to everyone in advance. I didn't see why this change would be any different.

b) When the Pokerstars rep (Dylan) commented about the emails with the date change, I incorrectly remembered what he said as implying that all players had received the email when he hadn't actually implied this in his phrasing.

c) I saw no logical reason why Stars would only inform a select percentage of players as opposed to all players (and am still confused about this). If they wanted to be honest and communicate in a way that the players would all be notified then it would make more sense to just send it to everyone. Conversely, if they wanted to be deceptive and keep players in the dark about the changes then it would make more sense to not send it to anyone. This middleground of only sending it to some but not all players does not make any sense to me.

Those three points combined were enough for me to genuinely believe the assumption was reasonable to make. Of course I wasn't 100% sure, but I was nonetheless very confident in my assumption based on those three factors combined which is why I said it.

2) A response pointed out that not everyone had received the email like I had suggested, so my statement was inaccurate.

3) I responded saying that I stand corrected and my assumption had been wrong, and that I agreed clearly that I thought Stars were completely at fault for their communication failure to the players regarding the change. I admitted to what was a genuine mistake.

4) A select few posters (probably ones who do not like my usual, unpopular contributions/opinions in the thread) picked up on my mistake like vulchers and were quick to point it out, suggesting that I had deliberately "lied" about the emails. I tried to defend myself that I hadn't done it on purpose.

5)I added what I thought was a helpful point that maybe if Stars are incompetent enough to make the same communication failure again in the future, that players could combat this by regularly checking the site's blog/2p2/social media, to ensure that they are never kept in the dark about the changes again.

6) Other 2p2ers (those same ones who'd claimed I "lied") now claimed that I'd said it was the players to blame rather than Stars for some people not knowing the changes were coming. I contested that I never claimed such a thing (see the bolded sentence in 3) for confirmation).

7) Back-and-forth arguments with members of the community attacking me claiming I was guilty of points 4) and 6), and me trying to defend myself that I was guilty of no such thing (other than the human mistake of assuming the obvious without being 100% sure). These arguments ultimately led to a long derail of the thread.

So to summarise, after reading your explanation for the infraction Bobo, it was a little unclear exactly what the reasoning behind the infraction was. It would seem that I was given the infraction for stating my assumption in the first place (that all players received the email). However if this is indeed the reason, I feel this is unfair as it's a natural assumption to make imo. Obviously in hindsight it would have been better if I'd just said "I got the email" rather than asserting my assumption as a fact. But the thing is everybody makes assumptions and they won't always be correct - but given this is just human nature I feel there's room for these mistakes and some leniancy should be allowed for when they happen (as they inevitably will at some stage).

Another possible reason I can think of why you might have given me the infraction is perhaps because I defended myself a bit too much? But when people are attacking you and claiming you've done things which aren't true (see 4) and 6) for reference) it can be quite difficult to restrain yourself from objecting to these accusations. In my view, the derail was not caused by me individually, but by the back-and-forth arguments discussed in 7).

Overall I feel the infraction was unexpected and after thinking it through, I still don't fully understand the justification behind it. However I stand by the fact that I've always seen you as a fair mod who doesn't just jump to conclusions/decisions about a reported poster without good reasoning behind it. So I would be grateful for the opportunity to hear your reasoning in more detail for giving me the infraction, and/or if my explanation here has been satisfactory enough to sway your decision to consider reversing the infraction? Cheers.

what's that?

PocketDucks since this is "your" thread let me ask you this:

what is your Stars screen name and hpw long have you played at each stakes of micro NL?


Asking so us genuine micro stakes players can check our hand history to confirm you are not just a PS PR marketing account. Which you more and more are seeming to be even to me, a semi-rec with an optimistic attitude.

Or maybe your level of verbosity, combined with ignoring others' experiences contrary to yours, is because you are on the Spectrum? (again, like me)


PS the above post #153 by Gandalf -- ouch eh? How do you explain that kind of apparent slip-up?

PokerStars FBI DoJ I'm guessing

Excellent observation, Proprietious!
That is what I have noticed. Makes me think of Baghdad Bob in the first Iraq war, basically "nothing to fear, everything is okay, in fact it is even better than it was". A distraction/deception from the objectively increasing doom befalling us.


Maybe Ducks has tunnel vision and refuses to see how these changes will result in even the lowest micros becoming reg-infested and unveatable. But his posts consistently show he only sees a limited chunk of this present poker reality, his mocking or ignoring posts by others who have done more thorough research to come up with opposite conclusions is definitely not helping this game survive, it only makes lurkers think "there seems to be 2 opposite but equally legitimate viewpoints on this issue".

Which is an impression I could imagine a PS PR account wanting.

I just have such a good feeling about this community going forward. I really do. I think PD will do just fine also!

Anyways, while we are all here!

There is pressing matter in the midst of all the PS scandal and unfavorable changes. I have an acquaintance, that is quiet reputable, quite experienced, and has developed a proto-type for the future of the game.

This is not at all a new site, it is not at all a new business. It's a proto-type for a new infrastructure that will dramatically shift the environment we all face. This technology is favorable for ALL players involved in the meta-games (this includes sites, and yes even poker stars!).

But its complex. And its new. There is no place to discuss it.

It's too big for programming: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/19...puter-1598156/

It's too complex and new for nvg (but there are reputable members engaged and interested!): http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...chain-1597162/

It doesn't belong in business finance and investing, it doesn't fit under the "bitcoin" thread, and it is far to big and off-topic to be considered an "alt-coin". It is not a coin at all. It is a protocol for an infrastructure (based on this paper: https://people.csail.mit.edu/rivest/...entalPoker.pdf).

We need to levate the topic. And then we will call it "re-levant" (this is a special use of the language called a "rheomode" google dr david bohm).

Historically discussion in this direction has been censored for obvious reason. But now we have projects that we don't understand that really want to engage with the players so they can connect with our legacy systems.

There is no place for them though, and they fear ignorance.

His Stars name is mottotom (possibly wrong spelling)

Yes, it is a satire or mocking metaphor. But the point holds true that sites have methods of rake targeting the the players are hitherto unaware of. It's VERY comparable to our collective inability to understand the futility of keynesian inflation targeting, which is quite relevant here. I realize, we can't read this, but its fun.

If I am allowed to say it I am not opposed to explaining: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...*****-1353102/

I made this post along time ago. It is disjoint without the esoteric key, so it doesn't read well. But basically it explains the downfall of a centralized model of rake targeting that has been suppressing the industry from the view of the players. There is a suggestion a new understanding of the game might rise from the ashes.

There is the suggestion an international site might arise, and give the players the proper ability to understand the metric I call "effective rake", which is not transparent today, but in the future I have no doubt will be.

The post above (some links are broken) gives a clue to how these things will unfold and we seem to be watch this today for reasons we are otherwise unaware of. The writing is just satirical, people didn't know how to take it mostly because it needs inquiry and translation.

Yes its difficult to read, but its fun and I think the conclusion is interesting:

Not trying to spam the subject, just an explanation, and its certainly more relevant today than back then. There is more significant points, but that is some needed context for some.

There's a poster that's been banned about a hundred times, that was a big fan of Nash, and used this one particular acronym again and again, that was something like "PSFTDOJFBI". So whenever he posted that acronym under his latest screen name, people would say, "oh, it's the Nash guy."

Think he may have a bit of a 'Beautiful Mind' - highly intelligent, etc.


Edit: Confirmed 'Nash guy' - hi nash guy

I think what PocketDucks is doing that makes it so hard to spot his trolls is lying, which is something people will not be accustomed to looking for.

For example he'll start an argument in the VIP thread by saying that rake increases aren't a negative, because there's been benefits to recreationals. So there's a shred of truth to his troll. And there's a lack of access to the info people would need to counter his trolling.

The big lie would be that he sincerely believes that the rake increases aren't a money grab. It's impossible to refute, because it's not a lie of fact. There's just no other reasonable person who would believe such a thing, not even Daniel Negreanu or Eric Hollreiser are trying to claim that the latest rake increases are for an increased benefit to recreationals, over and above the cutback to benefits that happened at the end of 2015.

I think he's taking advantage of peoples' idealism over free speech, because he thinks he's smarter than everybody else. He really is quite mocking of people.

I think you are just mad at me because I clearly understand this game better than you. Because I present something, I have something to offer. Because I called you out on your game when tried to suggest I have a mediocre understanding of it.

Because you know and admit I am smart, and you don't want to be shown your reaction to me was born from ignorance.

You should have to present more than meme's after trying to suggest I understand the game less then you (or even anywhere near your level).

You treat me like ****; what you do you expect in return ostrich? I'm trying to fight my way into a dialogue with a handful of posters here who are capable of understanding me (many of which DO admit I have something of value to add). But I can't get through the bird squawking.

You keep trying to convince the community how intelligent you are, how important you are. This forum is full of people with those qualities in great abundance, you however aren't one of them.

Merely telling everyone that you are Einstein, doesn't mean you can change a light bulb.

To be clear I am responding specifically to LO, who wants to call another player mediocre, I am well aware there are many bright and creative posters here. Far more knowledgeable in their own domains than I could ever hope to be. Furthermore you are missing thousands of posts for context. Don't judge me by my post count (ie why are you commenting).

Not trying to convince anyone other than I have sincere intent to bring content that has value.

For what its worth I dont believe pocketducks should be banned - and thats coming from someone whos found a lot of his posts annoying.

What he does that is specifically so annoying is state thngs that are complete hogwash or simply his opinion as outright fact such as

He also ignores facts presented to him by other players about Amaya and trys to constantly suggest it is not Amaya to blame for negative things, which is tilting.

However that is all standard in internet arguments? Who really cares anyway at the end of the day? I have also seen PD give some good solid advice in the promotions thread which many posters do not. A ban is completely unjustified and I hope he keeps posting. Just my 2p

mottotom27, have played hundreds of thousands of hands moving from 2nl to 50nl (mostly full ring zoom)

People keep referring back to the past, which does not have much relevance. What he said was right - I was a bit of a jerk in 2015, and I admit that. I admit to trolling in the past. I went through a lot last year; it was a difficult year for me. I got depressed and there were other things going on my life - it's complicated, so let's just leave it at that. Basically I'm admitting I was disruptive in 2015 on 2p2.

But I decided that in 2016, things had to change. I made a New Year's Resolution to completely change my posting habits on 2p2 this year. I have stuck to this resolution ever since, and the majority of my posts this year have been constructive and relevant to the topic of discussion. I'm a completely reformed person this year. I've already said that if you can find a single "clear troll" that you can correctly identify from this year, I'll ship you $20 no questions asked - that's how confident I am.

All the people suggesting otherwise either still hold a grudge against me from what happened in 2015, or just because of the often unpopular nature of my opinions. And I genuinely do hold these opinions of Pokerstars, I'm not just saying them to be controversial. Sure last year I may have exaggerated my opinions to the point where they came across as trolls, but this year I've just been voicing my opinions straight for what they are. I do support Pokerstars overall, which is why I continue to regularly use their site. But that's not to say that I'll come up with a reason to praise every change that they make. I didn't praise the rake increase itself (as this actually affects me in a negative way), and I also didn't praise their communication failure with the emails.

In 2016, I have not lied at all on 2p2, or the only "lies" I've made have been accidental ones, such as inaccurate wording or remembering something wrong. In your example here, I actually stated more than once that the rake increase is bad for all players. Sure I may have raised a separate point about how the rake change might have come about in the first place, or weighed up the pros and cons of all the recent Stars changes (including SN/SNE cuts, increased promotions aimed towards recs etc.). But regarding the rake increase itself in isolation, I never claimed it was "good for the ecosystem" or "benefits the recreationals".

This is why I keep getting scrutinised on 2p2 - because people like you keep putting words into my mouth and twisting my words. Same thing happened with the whole email derail thing (people claimed I'd deliberately lied to the community and claimed the whole rake increase was great for players).

People keep using me as a scapegoat, criticising me for all the "bad" things which they claim I have done (but in reality I haven't). In reality they keep forgetting all the positive things I've done in 2016, coming up with new ideas and feedback in the promotions thread, answering questions, giving hand history advice etc. etc. I've been over this before but people don't seem to want to hear it, but the reality is I've spent a LOT of time (probably too much time) making valid points, helpful contributions and innovative ideas and I'm not given nearly enough credit for it.

Thanks!

I'm not going to get into a big debate with you about a minor 15 point infraction. I think the reason you were already given was quite sufficient:

A 15 point infraction is fairly minor and quite standard for thread derails, especially when one has a history of problematic posting. The only reason a small infraction is a big issue for you is because you already have so many points racked up.

One thing I will add, though, is that the derails certainly aren't entirely on you. I haven't handed out much in the way of warnings/infractions to others for their role thus far (as poster history also plays a factor in what kind of infractions are doled out), but I'm going to start if people are going to continue derailing threads.

To that end, I just posted this in the VIP club thread:

I think the quality of that thread, or lack thereof, is attributable to a number of things, and not all of them are PD-related. In fact, most of them probably aren't. It's not a thread that moderators usually read, I don't think, and thus is generally loosely moderated. But now that we're getting some post reports, as I read through it, it's my opinion that the thread is frequently derailed by all sorts of things, and this situation can feed on itself when it's allowed to. Once people see that a thread has become a general Poker Stars discussion thread, they treat it as such as well. We already have plenty of those threads, so I think it's reasonable to ask that posters keep that thread a little more on topic.

Would be an awfully small thread

I was installing 888 poker today and got this sercurity alert from avira telling me that the installation file contains a virus.

I clicked the link from 888.com´s own website.

virus name HEUR/AUC (Cloud)

also the installation it self broke be4 finished.

anyone else tried to install 888poker resently and got simular problem?

I use windows 10 and avira as firewall/protection etc.

Most poker & casino installations will set off these alarms on some antiviruses. Techinically these apps are complete malware, so it's expected to cause false positives

Ok thanks for the explanation Bobo. This makes a lot more sense now, especially the bolded parts.