Nobody is calling him a troll based on a single stupid post, or even just a few, though - his body of work makes it pretty clear that he is either amazingly dense (and if he was as dense as he pretends to be, he would not be able to operate a computer and keyboard) or he's a troll.

Surely we're several months past the "well, maybe he's just very naive but possibly still honest and well-meaning"-stage?

I don't really think it's justified to suggest that this particular post could be classed as a "troll". I perhaps was just a bit unclear in my wording. I was assuming that the pros and cons each have similar significance to each other. For the 2 negatives to outweigh the 4 positives would mean that each negative would need to carry on average over twice the weight/significance of each of the positives (which is essentially only possible if the pros are all really minor points compared to the cons). So in my personal view, there is no way this can be the case as each of the pros I brought up are quite significant points imo.

The bottom line is I've made a lot of valid points and contributed constructively in this thread. All my opinions are completely valid and genuine (it's just that sometimes people's opinions can be controversial, especially ones that go against the mass view, hence the disagreement). Of course, occasionally I'll accidentally slip up in some way or another, be it making a statement that isn't completely accurate, wording things poorly, or even spelling/grammatical errors that I wouldn't normally make. Whilst I see these as just genuine human errors that occur fairly infrequently, people in this thread are quick to pick up on these errors and claim I'm deliberately trying to deceive or mislead people which is certainly not the case.

At the end of the day all I've done is share my opinions and offer some constructive points or feedback about the VIP changes. Bottom line is these are my opinions and I have a right to share them - simple as that. If an individual has a problem with hearing my opinions for whatever reason, they can always use the ignore feature, or if they feel I'm crossing the line they can report me. Abusing me in the thread (which seems to be their default choice) is not the right solution and will only cause a derail as Bobo pointed out.

My opinions and ideas may be polarising or controversial, but actually not everyone disagrees with them - there are some who agree with me and actually think I bring up some good points or ideas. I recently pitched an idea for a new and innovative game format in the MTT SNG thread (actually the spin-and-go based MTT SNG concept that LostOstrich just criticised me for). This was then reposted in the Pokerstars Promotions Ideas/Suggestions/Opinions Thread by someone because they thought it was an interesting idea - and a couple of other people were in agreement as well. This is just one example of how my opinions and ideas are taken seriously by some members of the community, and a clear indication that there is actually meaning and substance behind my posts as opposed to them just being meaningless nonsense.

Here's the thing. We don't get a lot of post reports about him, and those that we do are from people who seem to be so irritated about his mere existence that they'll report pretty much anything, which really doesn't help their cause. An example:

This post was reported today:
While this one wasn't:
Makes it a little hard to take post reports about PD seriously sometimes.

And when I say we don't get a lot of post reports, I mean relative to the posts complaining about him. I get told by some that he's seeking attention, but that's what those very same people give him every single time.

Stuff that makes us unique and different can be very special - and have said before that different points of view can sometimes lead to fresh insight, which can lead to growth or resolution.

With Pocket Duck's posts though, there actually seems to be an absence of growth or resolution. Like take that post he made about not having problems with the Challenge window - he didn't even include the build number like PS Keith asked for. A lot of people continued to report problems, and Keith is trying to find a resolution - how specifically does his post (without the info that Keith needed) help Keith find the problem?

And Bobo Fett, notice how he doesn't acknowledge or sympathize with your dilemma, or make it any easier for you by pointing out what it is about his posts that makes the forum better off because of them, despite all the conflict.

Like there's rarely acknowledgement of the big picture, and how his info ties in with what others believe to be true, so that the big picture become more complete with the additional info? It actually seems like he's picking spots to argue with people, where resolution isn't possible ...

So it's kind of a fine line - he does know enough to stick to substance ... but maybe a decent chunk of his posts might indeed be better off in a 'containment thread' like this one?

Guess we'll all see how it goes ...

It's actually quite sad to see how you've gone from someone who I used to get along with to someone who "follows the flock" and is too heavily influenced by other people's opinions. If you remember, initially you were in agreement about a lot of my views about things. Also I did a lot of mathematical analysis in the promotions thread to help demonstrate some complex EV calculations about specific promos for you, questions you were unsure of the answers to, and I spent quite a bit of time helping you with that. At the time you were thankful for this, but it seems like all these people accusing me of being a "troll" have sort of got to your head a bit and caused you to perceive me as more deceitful than I actually am. You seem to have changed your stance drastically ever since I made a small joke in my own PGC thread which you misinterpreted as a troll.

Also your talk of me "not understanding the big picture" well I actually think the reverse is true regarding a lot of posters here. Many oversimplify the situation with naive statements like "Pokerstars made those rake increases just because they're greedy" without understanding other variables that play a role like the stock market for instance.

Trusty I actually don't have anything against you as a person, I just feel like you have just let other people's opinions influence you a bit too much and give you the wrong end of the stick about me. I know I am not universally liked here (and my opinions, whilst genuine, can be controversial) but some individuals here do like me and appreciate the opinions and points I put forward so I want to maintain these people's faith and loyalty in me. So to have one of these people who initially was on my side to change their stance about me can be quite hurtful.

It seems like my one little joke in my PGC thread might be the root of why you've now turned against me. So perhaps the way I can move forward from this is to be more aware of how sensitive some people can be to jokes and that different cultures may respond to jokes in different ways, so whilst some cultures found my seemingly harmless joke amusing, other cultures (I expect you are a completely different nationality to me?) may not understand the joke or even find the joke offensive. I will learn from this experience and I apologise if my joke offended you or confused you somehow.

That's the key to getting along with difficult people - you look for the good in people, such as Pocket Duck's desire to feel helpful ... and then you ignore their bumbling mess of an attempt to apply advanced mathematical theory, pick out the sliver that's actually correct, and then make the necessary additions and corrections so that the right info gets posted ... and the person winds up feeling good about their 'contributions'.

Really went the extra mile to try and make PD feel included - because people don't tend to be disruptive when they feel like they belong. Can't be sure, but it seemed like it helped?

Just couldn't do it any more though. Guess opinions are what they are, so if you think art is silly and overpriced, then that's your right. It came across like you weren't capable of offering that same level of respect to me for thinking otherwise though, and I didn't want to have anything to do any more with someone who seemed incapable of seeing things from other peoples' perspective.

And it would appear that the same inability to see things from other peoples' perspective is still there in a big way - that last post was such a total joke Do believe that the apology was sincere, and that you want to learn from the experience - I just wouldn't know where to begin ... and there's just WAY too much drama ... :/

Anyways, so PD I still have you on ignore. And don't expect to be visiting your containment thread very often either.


Bobo Fett - thanks for all the hard work you and the other mods do ... no easy task it would seem ...

Bobo drop the hammer. PD's seems to admire the curtains while the rest of the world see's the elephant in the room. I've tried to reason with the guy... and point out flaws and alternatives but he ignores all facts that don't put Stars in the best of light. He irritates people and should be contained to his own Stars cheerleading thread.

So all this time you were just being deceptive, just pretending or "trolling" me when you claimed you found my mathematical theory and analysis helpful? I really do feel deceited and not just that, but don't you feel it's a little bit hypocritical given you accuse me of "trolling" when you basically admitted to doing something similar yourself?

Let's just forget any other discussions for now and just focus on the root of the issue which was my joke about the art painting, because that was where our relationship started to turn sour.

First, I never said I thought art is silly and overpriced. But when it comes to a sheep painting that I found on Google Images valued at around $20 and claimed in my thread that I bought it for $1.5k with all my poker savings, I thought people in my thread would see that I was joking, and indeed the majority of people did. But there's always the odd one out who comes from a different culture with a different sense of humour and may not find the same things funny as other people, but it's quite difficult to cater to everyone's sense of humour. You came across as quite oversensitive and not very tolerant of other people's different senses of humour and I assumed after this conversation that you may reflect on it and appreciate that someone people did understand the joke even if you did not personally.

I did apologise myself, but I think there is something you could possibly take away from this also. Perhaps you can increase your tolerance levels, as at the moment you're coming across as quite oversensitive. It's like if I have a friend and I point out they haven't shaved for a while, or something minor like that, and then they decide they don't want to talk to me ever again - that's kinda how you're coming across right now, and I don't mean that in a rude way or anything.

With all due respect Sect, but this discussion with Trusty has nothing to do with any of the discussions about VIP changes, it's more personal than that and is about something that went down in my PGC thread. Since it's my thread, I take the liberty to occasionally throw a joke in here and there. So I pretended I'd bought this painting below (valued at around $20 iirc) for $1.5k of all my poker earnings that I'd just cashed out.



Most people got that I was joking, but there's always one who misses the joke or doesn't get it and I think that was Trusty here. I totally respect that people from different continents can have completely different perspectives on what is or isn't funny so I tried to reason with him that it was just a joke, but he didn't recognise the cultural difference and instead took it way too seriously and reacted very sensitively. He accused me of being a liar and a troll and even went to the trouble of going through previous threads of me to see if there were any other comments made that might back that up.

I tried to reason with Trusty again today and even apologised to him even though I wasn't really the one mainly at fault here, as others in my PGC thread agree that Trusty was, for instance:

So yea, it was obviously a misunderstanding on a very petty matter but even now he doesn't seem willing to accept that he just misinterpreted the joke and that senses of humour can vary wildly between individuals.

Just need Mzbourg to pop in with his opinion on this ..

It seems to me, and BF's sentiments seem to confirm my understanding, that PD is coming by their behavior honestly. Which is probably why they are getting much more leeway than it seems they should.

That said, they are clearly massively disrupting this forum which is the network hub for many people (players) that are seriously interested in somehow mitigated the negative environment we have been corralled into by the industry. PD's persona is stuck in the devil's advocate role, which is unnecessary, and damaging to the dialogue that is otherwise in the pursuit of knowledge and solutions.

This forum has come to the point where a player can no longer say: There are some people that are losing their livelihood from these changes. Posters like PD (there are a small handful of others), who's post frequency on these topics is disruptive in itself, jump on these statements with PS-esque PR spin that the players never bought in the first place. This behavior sets the dialogue back and keeps it on the ground floor!!!

PD espouses views that we all know are wrong and we aren't debating. We are tasked with figuring out how to move forward and somehow preserve the integrity of the game (where integrity involves profitability because any sincere player KNOWS poker MUST be profitable)

Long ago I proposed a constitution. I don't think anyone understood why I did it, and now we see a crystal clear example of what it is for:

PD is not a sincere poster, they are not a sincere player. They have no intent to post content, and they are not listening to others that true to show them what is truth. This lack of sincerity and intention is clear to many posters.

The fact that it is not simple and acceptable to suggest PD is messing with peoples livelihood I think is a testament to how far this game has slid, and how much this community will accept.

To not be able to demand, as a customer, as a player, that poker be profitable, beatable, to a reasonable extent, is a sign of sickness among the community.

We have people posing solutions, and they are getting drowned out by incessant trolling and effective spam.

This is not about “opinion”. Many people are disagreeing with each other all the time on 2p2 with no action asked for. This is about disruption of what could be an otherwise construction dialogue on how to better proceed together. ANY poster that disrupts that incoherence should be politely forced to stop.

And I want to re-affirm. I don't think the responsibility should rest on the mods. I think the community should be taking up the task of driving out those that have clear intent to act against the betterment of the game.

I also think this thread/topic would go quite differently if the entire forum was quite aware of it. I suspect what would happen is 4 or 5 of these posters would be naturally highlighted (because they tend to stick up for each other). Might sound like a majority vs the minority, but remember the poker constitution, these players are purposefully acting against the good of the community.

Fantastic post Proprietious.

(Pocket Ducks I have you on ignore, so didn't read your posts)

I forget one thing that actually deserves its own post anyways.

PD (and also the few others that could be highlighted) specifically is often caught deliberately and directly mocking the players' unfortunate situation. It seems quite clear this behavior would be exacerbated if it wasn't for the community's complaints and attention.

PD's persona itself is one giant constructed mocking of the players situation.

While the industry and the game we love is going down in flames as a direct result from intentionally negative policies, PD is consistently entering threads stating games are running in good health because of the positive changes PS implements.

That we would even debate such behavior is appropriate, to me, is the biggest tell ever in regard to the health of this community/industry (to be clear again I understand the difficulty in "fair" moderation; rather I lay the responsibility on the community as a whole to tend to such matters).

Serious people have stopped posting here because of trolls like him. If the best a mod can do is just move the scum to another thread, might as well not be bothered to report anything... he'll just carry on.

The majority of his posts are divided in 2 categories: attention whore disagreeing with everyone on purpose or just plain troll. FYI he's created other accounts in the past to carry conversations with himself lol... which he later admitted. But meh, all of this is perfectly fine on 2p2 forums I guess.

I know for one I've stopped checking these forums as often after scum like him surfaced everywhere... and that's not on them, that one's on the mods. Also, 'ignore' function is useless since people keep quoting the trolls.

Edit: +1 to everything Proprietious wrote. Except the mods part, I do believe the responsibility is on them.

I think the problem is the mods don't see the whole body of work, just the reported posts which don't seem that bad out of context. He's subtle about it, having his previous accounts banned taught him to slow down.

Would be easier to limit his account to only post in this thread.

Other thing I noticed from another thread is he's really young, could explain why he finds trolling so fun.

Proprietious, it is completely hypocritical for you to suggest that I'm being disruptive when you yourself were constantly arguing with others in the Stars "revised pricing" thread which resulted in a massive derail. The general demeanour about your posts is that if anyone makes a positive comment about Stars about anything then you don't want to hear it.

For instance, someone said "These rake increases suck, but there have been some decent promotions recently so that's one thing I like"

and then you were like "Hey get rid of this guy, he's supporting the changes! Anyone who supports the changes should not be allowed to post here. He's messing with people's livelihoods..."

Well I'm sorry, but people do have the right to post their thoughts and opinions about things, and if you don't like hearing their opinions then that's your problem - put them on ignore if you have to. Even if someone is genuinely being disruptive or unhelpful, abusing them in the thread just initiates an argument which will cause an even bigger derail.

Also lol at your comment that it should be the "community's" job of deciding when to kick people out rather than the mods. You have absolutely no power or authority to get rid of someone at your leisure just because you don't agree with someone's posts. The mods are there for a reason, same with every online forum not just poker.

Sure I may have done silly things in the past, which is why I have received the fair punishment for these things in the form of infractions. However this is 2016 now, and this year the vast majority of my posts have been valid, constructive and well thought-out.

And as for your suggestion that i'm an "attention whore disagreeing with everyone on purpose". There are of course moments where my views contradict the views of the majority, but your statement is totally inaccurate. Let's not forget also that have also been moments where I've agreed with the majority view, for instance, several times I made it clear that I thought the rake increase in itself was bad for the games and sucked for the players. I don't disagree just for the sake of disagreeing, I actually have my own unique opinions that people happen to disagree with and - without justification - abuse me for sharing these opinions.

To be clear, I identified what you are doing a very long time ago. I identified you and a few other posters that should also be on trial here as being disruptive to the community and our ability to have meaningful beneficial dialogue.

I engaged with the few of you until I made you admit CRYSTAL CLEAR in your own words that the stars changes are not beneficial for the players.

I did this specifically so that there is unequivocal proof you know exactly what you are doing. And I made you repeat these sentiments beyond this.

Then I started to flag every post you and the couple others were making, and I started to post complaints in the nvg mod thread, until the mods gave me a warning (to which I immediately responded/heeded to by going to bed!).

As I understand, our entire exchange was deleted which I am very grateful for because it was full of your trashy devil's advocate smut.

As far as you and the players here are concerned...I am the reason we are having this discussion.

I am simply asking for the propriety of the community to enforce its own constitution, and take the unfavorable task of censoring an opinion out of the hands of the mods. They obv don't want to do it for fairness reasons.

But the community needs to recognize, this poster, and the few others, are taking away our ability to find solutions, be creative, and move on.

There attitude trumps their own freedom of speech, because this is a poker forum. You cannot espouse opinions that literally cause the community to suffer. It's against unwritten code.

I should think a player might want to think hard before they try and refute that code.

This player is on trial now too.

Am I six years old?

I have made more positive contributions to this forum in a single day than these two put together will EVER make.

A PERFECT example/evidence of what these posters are consistently doing to every thread they engage in: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...9&postcount=51

Oh so you're the big hero then? That's absolutely preposterous.

And your comment that you managed to talk me into "admitting" that the rake increases were bad for the players is a blatant lie. I said this right from the get go - in the very first post I made in this thread, I opened by saying something along the lines of "Whilst I do agree that the rake increase is bad for the players, another thing I would say is..." I made it crystal clear that I wasn't saying that I thought the rake increase would benefit the players. You just criticised me for the other point I made in my post that defended the site, and twisted my words to make it sound like I was supporting the rake increase when that clearly wasn't the case.

Also your big talk of being the reason for saving the thread, well you were actually the biggest problem. You were so caught up in your constant arguing with any post you did not agree with that when anyone was to click on that thread - all they saw was your argumentative posts that contributed nothing to the purpose of the thread. If there was a derail to begin with, then you made it a million times worse. No wonder the mod gave you a warning.

And you're no hero by any means so don't pat yourself too hard. You've even started arguing with one of the mods in the "2016 Pokerstars MTT Discussion Thread". Your delusions of grandeur are false, and other members of the community have commented in ways that show that they agree:

These are just two posts out of many who disagree with your oppressive view that your opinions matter more than anyone else's and that any opinion that contradict's your own should be banished. There are many other posts I could find from people who despise seeing your nauseatingly egotistical and deluded posts. So take a step back and think for a moment - maybe you are the problem?

My integrity and sincerity is not on trial, and the mods admins do not wish it to be at this time, otherwise, like you, my fate would be up for discussion in this thread.

The mods and the sincere regular posters here are quite aware of who I am and there are HUNDREDS if not more quotes from these peoples supporting my sentiments.

You are simply unaware of this, and unaware of who you are speaking to, but the rest of the community around you is not (I expect you to remain clue-less to this fact, while again, others will not).

You are the anti-thesis of me. I am the opposite of you. I post content. I care for this game, and the community that created it.

The posters who you quoted also are not at all aware of who I am, or the content I am responsible for. But rest assured the mod I was responding to already expressed appreciation for me and I fully expect that to never change going forward. Furthermore a poster that simply calls another a "dick", should be given a warning for no content.

No more deflection. This is about you.

Will you, or will you NOT starting posting and acting with sincerity? If you cannot even claim or admit you will attempt to act with maturity I think your posts should go no further than this thread.

Here is a post that pretty much summarises what the problem is with you (OMGClayDol is a very well-respected player too). No doubt that again you won't listen.

Reason for this "deflection" is the hypocritical nature of the fact that you are accusing me of being disruptive when you're clearly far worse. So I'm sorry, but you are the one in the spotlight now.

I don't get it either. pocket ducks has posts which understandably annoy people since it is mostly unpopular opinion, but from what I've seen he seems genuine and not a troll. so if the discussion is whether he should be banned for trolling then I think it's a clean no, even though I don't really agree with most of what he says. there are ppl who post way worse stuff or are actually more clearly trolls.

feel free to quote some posts he said which were ridiculous or trolling to correct me, I certainly didn't read most of his posts by any means and could have missed something. but even the "really bad one" about 2 bad points vs 4 good points didn't seem like a troll or ban worthy. maybe cringe/"dumb" but tbh even then his explanation seemed pretty reasonable (doesn't mean I agree with him overall) and seems sincere. seems like he is willing to explain himself etc.

again this doesn't mean I endorse his posts or opinions by any means. i also haven't read a lot of what he said, so feel free to point out examples I may have missed.
if I understood correctly this is about whether to ban or limit his posting privileges in which case my impression is it's quite unreasonable to do so...

edit**I read a little more of the thread and complaints and if he's seriously going through this much effort to elaborately/convincingly troll that he's serious then whatever, just block him, he's not going to convince anyone anyway.**

as far as prop.. self-claiming to make tonnes of positive contributions... I dunno man. as above 95% of what I've seen is you saying is how other people are posting wrong, or walls of text saying explaining why what they are posting is wrong etc.

I mean if u guys wanna ban this guy, guys like "recreationalplayer" seems way more likely to be a gimmick/troll and he actually attacks 90% of the posters by saying how ******ed all the regs are etc. however they are voicing an unpopular opinion and I tend to think guys like that need to be given the benefit of the doubt as seriously misinformed reg-resenters. even if they post crap it doesn't really hurt unless you let it and you can always ignore.

look, i don't agree with PD on his view regarding stars changes(i'm also 99 percent sure he is just doing it to get a rise out of people). but i do think the people on this forum should grow thicker skin. I mean, if a bunch of logically inconsistent ramblings is all it takes to get u angry... anyway my point is PD has the right to argue that the earth is flat, and if u let that anger u, its ur own fault.

also, everyone has made a joke or posted a meme on 2p2. i don't think PD should be banned for making jokes, i think bans should be reserved for impersonators or scammers(or anything that is actually serious).

yes i do understand the view that he is clogging up the threads, but just give him a warning and tell him to tone it down or something.

i personally just reads his posts and have a laugh, if u know he isn't serious, then don't take him seriously

If i understand your sentiments omg... your conclusion when you didn't read many of PD's posts was the suggestion was unreasonable, but then once you even lightly informed yourself you did a "180".

I have had more attempts at positive contribution deleted than you will ever make. More words deleted here than you will ever contribute. Nonetheless I am just pointing out you are again commenting on something you have not properly caught yourself up on.

Me saying how other posters are "wrong" is a circle that leads back to us finally collectively questioning whether PD and the few others (reacreationalplayer,borg23) should be allowed to constantly disrupt what could be constructive conversation.

You need to straighten out what you are looking at and describing. I understand it isn't clear.

Prop is a much worse poster than ducks imo, though both are absolute AIDS in their own special ways.

lol you sure think highly of yourself
there's probably a good reason you need to say these great contributions of yours were deleted".

your definition of constructive is just who agrees with you, I don't agree with a lot of what those ppl (and others) say either but you can't just say ban them because they don't want to participate in your specific plan to try make progress and change.

ostrich is absolutely right you could start an argument in a room by yourself. it took me a while to realise it because when you routinely spam me on Twitter (10 tweets at a time) I wasn't really sure what you were linking me. it seemed kinda academic so whilst I was sceptical, since I didn't have the time to read most of it I just gave you benefit of the doubt.

but now looking at some of your posts it's actually funny when you think something is a "snap ban" lol

for example you linked yourself this -
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...9&postcount=51


Borgs post about recs not noticing rake is completely reasonable and I actually often agree with some points (not all) he makes.

lol how is this a "snap ban"

This:
Quote:
Originally Posted by borg23 View Post
They know whether or not they're enjoying themselves and aren't playing primarily for the money.
As a response to this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proprietious
Fun players are there to have fun...
This should be a snap ban. This poster is not sincere, they are arguing and not paying attention to what they are reading or what they are saying. How long will we allow this disruptive non-sense to continue?

These posters are being singled out, because they are constantly mocking the players misfortune state of events they are facing. Literally "lol-ing" in the middle of otherwise constructive dialogue. They are annoying others to the point where every page these dialogues are riddled with complaints about their inability to sincerely engage.

The players are not questioning these changes are good for the game it is not a matter of opinion to come into a thread and assert the devil's advocate opinion. It is insincere and ignorant at best.

I am quite happy to engage with people I disagree with. You perhaps. But constructive conversation cannot go on will these players are pervading the threads with this kind of spam. I am not the only one to point this out about this players, you simply don't understand the distinction being made here.

borg and PD are VERY well known for ignoring the points that are presented to them and to continue to espouse what has already been contradicted and discussed. They continue to argue people without actually reading the post that the person they are arguing with made. They are arguing for the sake of arguing. I am not doing this, and I don't do this.

It deserves a ban because they continually engage posters without ANY intent whatsoever to consider the other view, the logical view, that both me and you agree is logical. You should have to TRY. You shouldn't be allowed to simply continually disrupt with out TRYING. Without sincerity.

Why would you claim otherwise? Why would you chastise me for trying to assert this?

You never read a thing I sent you. Start with what is "moral poker"

Notice they simply mirrored what I said. Copied me and said "no i am not; you are".

I disrupted the dialogue to put and END to this BS...this poster simply does this out of HABIT! They are doing it with intent to bring down the value of the community. I am bringing awareness to this so that we can move up, and on, and begin to have a cohesive dialogue. To once again be a constructive community.

I'd sacrifice my privileges for this to happen ANY DAY.