Why is PokerStars raking play money games now? - Page 3 - Internet Poker

madison79 · 07-05-2012, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Do it Right

For a serious reply - the reason is pretty simple. If you ask any random poker player what they think of online poker - one of the things a huge percent will respond is that it's rigged. I think a major thing that's giving people this impression is that they're comparing unraked games, home games in particular, to raked games.

Stars, in particular, charges some extremely high rake with practically no rewards at certain stakes. Low stakes PLO is raked at 20+bb/100, for instance. That means you can be a 19bb/100 winner at PLO in an unraked home-game - which is an obscenely high earn rate. But if you decide to play Stars for real money against the same sort of players, you'll be a very consistent loser. You'll be outplaying everybody consistently, getting it good and holding - yet consistently losing. Now if you the players you happen to play against in the real money games are even better than the players you were facing in the home-games, which is likely, then this impact becomes further multiplied. Even if you're still crushing but this time only for 10bb/100 pre-rake, you'll end up a huge -10bb/100 loser. That's dropping a bankroll a month with moderate volume. The impact of rake is so well disguised that almost no casual player would ever suspect the reason they're losing is because of those few pennies to couple of bucks raked per pot - as Stars goes out of their way to claim multiple times in the email to OP - "...PokerStars takes a small portion.." "rake ... consists of a small percentage..." etc. They convince people it's this tiny little amount, understandably leaving people rather confused when it turns out that 'small portion' is several times more than what even the most skilled players earn on the tables. Naturally they turn to other reasons they're losing - perhaps players are cheating, the site is rigged, whatever.

This seems like a really backwards attempt to try to break this thought process. So to prepare people for how the rake completely kills any edge possible in ring games for the vast majority of non-pro players, they decide to rake play-money games even harder than ring games. Of course the obvious result is now people will start to feel even Stars play-money games are rigged making them even less likely deposit. So, as usual - another mind numbingly backwards decision from Stars in regards to rake and its impact. If the rake is driving people away - let's just rake the free games, but even harder! Whatever, let them dig their own grave.

TLDR since it's a fake thread.

39suited · 07-05-2012, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Do it Right

If the rake is driving people away - let's just rake the free games, but even harder! Whatever, let them dig their own grave.

True, PokerStars will indeed crash without any doubt just because of the rake on the play money tables.

You started with "For a serious reply" and ended with such a non sense ... well played.

mme · 07-05-2012, 01:42 PM

just out of curiosity ..to my knowledge there is currently no software out there that lets you setup a (secure) p2p poker game. from wikipedia i take that (german card game) skat has been implemented but not poker [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_poker].

LazyAce · 07-05-2012, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Haven

Of course, it's quite likely that PS noticed this was happening more and more, and decided they would prefer those players to pay them rake for using and abusing their facilities, so they closed this loophole, knowing that the players who were really playing for play chips would not give a damn.

How is using pokerstars software for play money games and then settling up offline with cash abusing their facilities?

First of all, it's not like Stars couldn't easily see this coming. When Home Games were first introduced I immediately thought of getting my friends whom I play actual home games with to try this using Home Games on Stars and then settling up with cash online. The idea just never got a lot of love up until recently with my friends because most of them are just not online guys, and unfortunately no mobile app here in Canada yet so everybody would have to have their lap top at the table which would be a little much.

If this is in fact the reason for Stars doing this, its a pretty stupid solution. First off, it only partially 'closes the loophole' for ring games. Play money SNG's can still be played using Stars Home Games and settled up offline for the agreed upon buyin whilst disregarding the registration fee.

For Cash games, it makes it more difficult, but I do believe that play money hands can be imported into PT/HEM and a 100% rakeback system can be figured out using either dealt, WC or I believe WTA through a custom stat.

Another reason that it is stupid is that those players that were using Stars Home Games ala play money to facilitate real money live games are not likely to switch to real money now. I doubt very many casual players that were previously using Stars Home Games are suddenly all going to deposit real money so that they can continue to do so and agree to play in a raked game.

The concept of Stars Home Games was actually quite brilliant. Its a great way for them to get added exposure and free marketing through word of mouth by their own player base. I host a home game, I instruct all players to bring their laptop over, everybody is required to download Stars software and create an account. If even a fraction of those home game players are converted into real money players, everybody wins. Stars acquires new players for basically nothing, and their are added net depositers into the economy.

Most people that I meet at live home games are not particularly interested in online poker, but rake free play money games that can be used to play for real money in a live setting is a great way to get these players familiar with the software, and more likely to become a real money player in the future.

mme · 07-05-2012, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LazyAce

How is using pokerstars software for play money games and then settling up offline with cash abusing their facilities?

it may not be much of a problem if it is only one or the other home game running like this. but i would not be too surprised hearing that someone has found a way to setup a business on top of stars. play money rake may be a way keep this under control. possible explanation at least.

LazyAce · 07-05-2012, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mme

it may not be much of a problem if it is only one or the other home game running like this. but i would not be too surprised hearing that someone has found a way to setup a business on top of stars. play money rake may be a way keep this under control. possible explanation at least.

Ok, I'm not sure how somebody would be running a business out of it, but even if they were they'd be acquiring new players for Stars since I'm sure some percentage of players that download the software solely for participating in a LAN poker game would eventually convert to real money play.

Also, I posted a pretty simple work around for this using PT/HEM. If it is a business that Stars is trying to mess up, then they actually just made it easier for that business to profit since the operator could collect the buy-ins, pay out winnings or ending stack sizes and keep the difference which would be rake which the software would now so conveniently calculate for them.

I also already pointed out that raking play money would have no effect SNG's/tourneys since the registration fees could easily be disregarded. It only poses an inconvenience really.

AUGUY55 · 07-05-2012, 03:19 PM

What I find funny is that OP went out of his way to email support about it. lol

Two words.

Play money.

mme · 07-05-2012, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LazyAce

the operator could collect the buy-ins, pay out winnings or ending stack sizes and keep the difference

oops, this is actually a pretty cool idea. i wonder if the additional traces you leave outweight the juicyness.

Do it Right · 07-05-2012, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AUGUY55

What I find funny is that OP went out of his way to email support about it. lol

Two words.

Play money.

A slight hijack but why is that funny in the least? The vast majority of players lose money at online poker - people who can manage to enjoy the game playing for play seem to have a huge one up on the rest of the players who play poker casually. Per hand rake completely distorts the game of poker since it turns a previously 0 sum game into an incredibly negative sum game. If I were playing play money I'd certainly be upset about this change.

Dodo1497 · 07-05-2012, 03:59 PM

Did not read whole thread but maybe Stars will try monetize play money market like zynga ?

Look at number of play money players online. And Stars does not earn single penny from them.

**Mike Haven** · 07-05-2012, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LazyAce

the operator could collect the buy-ins, pay out winnings or ending stack sizes and keep the difference which would be rake which the software would now so conveniently calculate for them.

You don't think this is an excellent example of abusing the software that PS pays for out of their own pockets?

Next you'll be suggesting we should bring our own coffee flasks to Starbucks while we use their Wi-fi to play the games.

LazyAce · 07-05-2012, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Haven

You don't think this is an excellent example of abusing the software that PS pays for out of their own pockets?

Next you'll be suggesting we should bring our own coffee flasks to Starbucks while we use their Wi-fi to play the games.

The only abuse there would be is Stars charging a group of players 4+ buyins to use their software for an evening with micro rake at 10bb/100 hands paid per player. I mean, nobody is going to do this anyway.

It would not be abuse if Stars benefits from the usage. Stars offers play money already to freaking millions of players. Is it a cost to them? Yes of course it is, but obviously the added server cost of running play money games is justified. A small percentage of play money players will eventually deposit. The same goes for Home Games. Stars will benefit in the exact same way so I'm really not sure where you see abuse. Driving traffic to their website is to their benefit. Getting players to download their software is to their benefit.

As for your Starbucks comment, I'd expect something more intelligent from a 2p2 mod. Of course I bring my flask to Starbucks, and then pay for it to be filled there because I care about the environment

TopPairNine · 07-05-2012, 04:34 PM

This thread is in a word, AWESOME!

**Mike Haven** · 07-05-2012, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LazyAce

It would not be abuse if Stars benefits from the usage. Driving traffic to their website is to their benefit.

The point is that the opposite is happening. We are seeing more and more "home games" springing up, (and I use inverted commas because half the players don't know each other, and live in opposite ends of the Earth), and those that are grinding the play money HGs the most are people who once paid rake, but now see this as an easy way to increase their profit, manyfold, while at the same time removing dollars from the host's rightful expectation.

If you knew the figures, you would understand that this is not only obvious abuse, but also pertinent to future rake charges to the real money players who stay with play as intended.

Methinks you protesteth too much. You wouldn't happen to be one of the underground tournament directors that are ruining the play money games for the rest of us, would you, by any chance?

Punker · 07-05-2012, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Do it Right

Low stakes PLO is raked at 20+bb/100, for instance. That means you can be a 19bb/100 winner at PLO in an unraked home-game - which is an obscenely high earn rate. But if you decide to play Stars for real money against the same sort of players, you'll be a very consistent loser.

Maybe if you win every single hand. The table is being raked, not each individual player.