Let me preface by saying that I've been playing poker for a living for 8 years, played on 15+ sites, and I've played around 3 million hands. I've never accused a site of being rigged or super-using before and I've pretty much always viewed posts and talk about it as coming from illogical/crazy people.

That said, after playing about 2500 HU hands on play2b, I feel pretty confident (90%?) that I was super-used. Maybe...maybe if I had been playing on a different site for a while and then had what happened to me on play2b happen there I would just chalk it up to the weirdest coincidences I've experienced but with all the shadiness that is already surrounding play2b, the fact that it is browser based, and the fact(?) that you can't store your hand histories make it seem much more plausible to me.

Like I said, I'm confident but obviously not certain. There is no way to prove it and 99% chance nothing would be done even if it was proven. Just letting everyone know my experience there. Best of luck if you choose to play there.

wow wtf.. I feel the same way.

Im on a 20keur downswing on this site, but before that I had a 16k euro upswing.

Then all of a sudden these new accounts started playing 2/4+ with super tight italian players who kept raping me. They would play 44/25 HU and yet still manage to 4bet at all the right times.

Its hard to believe they are super using cuz they play so tight. That aspect of it doesnt make sense but I just cant understand how I keep losing. Because of their weird stats ive def stacked off too light vs them too but something shady is def going on.

The players who play super tight yet manage to crush are: Pumpmyroll, neversaynever, Hurricane.

Some others too but these three def come to mind.

Yeah when Alex told me about a bunch of new users with similar stats (and bad ones, too) all crushing him for a lot of money I was suspicious. Would be sweet to hear other people give their thoughts, too.

Shady Italian sites almost never seem like a good idea...

PM sent. I wasn't sure how much details I wanted to put here in the open but yeah pretty much this. I was never called on the river by a worse hand*, I was raised or called EVERY time that I was bluffing, barreled EVERY time that my draws missed, all action ceased EVERY time that I hit even very hidden draws, and I was 4bet every time that I bluff 3b. Of course I NEVER actually value 3b because while I had more than my fair share of strong hole cards it was open folded EVERY time I did. So essentially vs me they just 4b 100% so maybe that doesn't sound so fishy but the 1 time that I decided to 5b shove with my 54s I was called by 82o, and this by someone who is not calling light at all.

*I was called on the river by a worse hand 1 time fwiw. Possibly to not make it painfully obvious. I dunno, maybe I'm insane.

Hey all,

Earlier this year 4Donk/Poker in Venice (PIV) stopped letting their players cash out. They are a multi-network poker site, that basically blamed Cake poker for not paying their own players out.

I dont know if thats true or not and dont care to speculate about that at this point. PIV owners prolly just made a run with the money and are living it up somewhere on a beach for all I know.

Anyhow, one out that the players at PIV did have, was to get their money moved to a new network, Play2B and rake 75% of their balance to get it off the site.

I started out well, and crushed on the site turning my 16k eur to 31k.

After that, some new players joined the games who would play usualy 200nl but also come sit at 2/4+, where I would usually sit and wait for action.

3-4 of these players had very similar playing styles. They would usually play about 45/25 Heads up. 45% from SB and 25% from BB with a 3bet of about 10-12%.

For some reason tho, these guys would also be able to 4bet me when I didnt have much. They would also limp some times and never really Cbet unless they had anything or if I also had flopped a hand. They just always seemed to have it.

Another player has also told me he called called by 82o when he 5bet shoved over a 4bet with 45s. This seems SUPER shady to me.

I wasnt sure wether I was being superused even tho it kinda felt that way because it wouldnt make sense to play so damn tight if you had information about the other persons hand, so I just blamed the fact that I was maybe misplaying some hands and not adapting well to the fact that these guys were so tight.

I know one guy I played against checkraised me on a 97x board with KQ, I float two streets with K6 or whatever. The final board is 97x79 and I minraise his decently size bet on the river as a bluff vs Ace high and he snapcalls me with KQo.

At the time I just thought this guy was a huge fish but looking whats happened since(This hand happened much earlier before I started getting raped by all the other tight players), I wouldnt be surprised of he knew what I had.

Anyhow, I want to know if there are any other players who are experiencing weird things happen vs anyone but especially the following players.

-Hurricane
-PumpMyRoll
-neversaynever
-Luizaneg
-kinder

Please post in this thread and maybe we can see if other players have noticed anything fishy.

Thanks

i also want to add that the hand history format at Play2B is super glitchy and sometimes shows the villains holecards even tho there is no showdown. Sometimes the handhistory will show Heros or villains holecards as a hand from a previous showdown.

its all super glitchy and shady!

ILl post an example. gonna see if I can find them.

Game #5482713 starts.

#Game No : 5482713
***** Hand History for Game 5482713 *****
$1000 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Sunday, June 16, 18:03:00 ET 2013
Table 307267 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 8: BinbsKGB ( $1254.50 USD )
Seat 9: dancer ( $744.00 USD )
dancer posts small blind [$5.00 USD].
BinbsKGB posts big blind [$10.00 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to BinbsKGB [ Qh 7d ]
dancer raises [$15.00 USD]
BinbsKGB calls [$10.00 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 6d, 5c, 9d ]
BinbsKGB checks
dancer checks
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8d ]
BinbsKGB bets [$31.00 USD]
dancer folds
BinbsKGB shows [ Jh, Qs ].
BinbsKGB wins $71.00 USD

Game #5482739 starts.

#Game No : 5482739
***** Hand History for Game 5482739 *****
$1000 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Sunday, June 16, 18:04:00 ET 2013
Table 307267 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 8: BinbsKGB ( $1273.75 USD )
Seat 9: dancer ( $724.00 USD )
BinbsKGB posts small blind [$5.00 USD].
dancer posts big blind [$10.00 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to BinbsKGB [ Ah Ks ]
BinbsKGB raises [$15.00 USD]
dancer raises [$50.00 USD]
BinbsKGB raises [$124.00 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4s, Js, 9h ]
dancer checks
BinbsKGB checks
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8d ]
dancer bets [$100.00 USD]
BinbsKGB calls [$100.00 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ 2c ]
dancer bets [$100.00 USD]
BinbsKGB calls [$100.00 USD]
dancer shows [ Kd, Jd ].
dancer wins $688.00 USD

Game #5482817 starts.

#Game No : 5482817
***** Hand History for Game 5482817 *****
$1000 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Sunday, June 16, 18:05:00 ET 2013
Table 307267 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 8: BinbsKGB ( $929.75 USD )
Seat 9: dancer ( $1067.25 USD )
dancer posts small blind [$5.00 USD].
BinbsKGB posts big blind [$10.00 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to BinbsKGB [ 6h Qd ]
dancer raises [$15.00 USD]
BinbsKGB calls [$10.00 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ Js, 5h, Kh ]
BinbsKGB checks
dancer bets [$40.00 USD]
BinbsKGB folds
dancer shows [ Kd, Jd ].
dancer wins $80.00 USD

Game #5482853 starts.

#Game No : 5482853
***** Hand History for Game 5482853 *****
$1000 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Sunday, June 16, 18:05:00 ET 2013
Table 307267 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 8: BinbsKGB ( $909.75 USD )
Seat 9: dancer ( $1086.50 USD )
BinbsKGB posts small blind [$5.00 USD].
dancer posts big blind [$10.00 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to BinbsKGB [ 5s Ah ]
BinbsKGB raises [$15.00 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3s, 3h, 9d ]
dancer checks
BinbsKGB bets [$25.00 USD]
dancer calls [$25.00 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ts ]
dancer checks
BinbsKGB checks
** Dealing River ** [ Td ]
dancer bets [$90.00 USD]
BinbsKGB folds
dancer shows [ Kd, Jd ].
dancer wins $180.00 USD

Game #5482954 starts.

#Game No : 5482954
***** Hand History for Game 5482954 *****
$1000 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Sunday, June 16, 18:07:00 ET 2013
Table 307267 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 2
Seat 8: BinbsKGB ( $849.75 USD )
Seat 9: dancer ( $1145.00 USD )
dancer posts small blind [$5.00 USD].
BinbsKGB posts big blind [$10.00 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to BinbsKGB [ Th Jc ]
dancer folds
BinbsKGB shows [ Jh, Qs ].
BinbsKGB wins $15.00 USD

That is conclusive as ****. Just stop playing there you are being cheated. Against some nitty player that happens? Yeah, ok...

Heres a graph of some of them combined under one alias.



I also checked 4bet success rate percentage over a sample of 14 hands and its 92%, which is abnormally high but its a smaller sample. Maybe if we get more hands from the players that I have from other players we can look at a more meaningful sample size.

Yeah, I played there for 2 days and haven't played there since. This was about a week ago.

I was a big reg for about close to 3 month on play2b. I stopped playing there because i noticed cash outs problems.

I was a good winner and rarely had big bad day except for 1 day last month just before I stopped.

These 3 players I remember them well...

-Hurricane
-PumpMyRoll
-neversaynever

Unfortunately unless Binbs tell me/us how to import correctly hands to HEM manager I can't review all the hands against them. What I do remember... is that my worse day on play2b was 1 of the day were these 3 guys were all online on my NL200 tables. They were making very strange play for reg like limping a lot and 3betting/4betting a lot while being tight at the same time.

I do remember telling myself, "ok, how can it go so bad". To me it was like I was running super bad this day. I also did steam a bit but still. They looked super strong to me. They were obviously one of the reason I also stopped to play there.

From what I also remember, they also appeared on the network in the same period (7 days or less), maybe even the same day.

It would really suck if we got all cheated...

Binbs, your avatar makes it hard to concentrate on the post itself. I remember the PIV issue and almost put money on their site just before it happened. The examples you cite look fairly shady, but it's also possible there are other explanations. Is there enough action there to keep playing but to avoid the players you mentioned? It seems if you were able run your roll up as much as you stated that there must be some fish to play against as well.

Best of luck to you and Druid working out what to do. I assume you've written the site to voice your suspicions?

Yea I was doing pretty well before those guys started playing on the site. They all played similar styles. The first one to do this who would even play up to 5/10 was Luizaneg. Another swedish reg by the name of iwinnomore would also play him and we would often play 3handed but somehow luizaneg always came out on top.

Here is a hand between me and luizaneg where I basically just tried to bluff him and yet he snapcalled me on the river.

Game #6746587 starts.

#Game No : 6746587
***** Hand History for Game 6746587 *****
$1000 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Friday, July 5, 23:10:00 ET 2013
Table 307267 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 3
Seat 3: Luizaneg ( $2569.50 USD )
Seat 4: BinbsKGB ( $1151.50 USD )
Seat 5: iwinnomore ( $980.00 USD )
Luizaneg posts small blind [$5.00 USD].
BinbsKGB posts big blind [$10.00 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to BinbsKGB [ Ks 6d ]
iwinnomore folds
Luizaneg raises [$15.00 USD]
BinbsKGB calls [$10.00 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2h, 8s, 9c ]
Luizaneg checks
BinbsKGB bets [$20.00 USD]
Luizaneg raises [$60.00 USD]
BinbsKGB calls [$40.00 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8h ]
Luizaneg bets [$120.00 USD]
BinbsKGB calls [$120.00 USD]
** Dealing River ** [ 9s ]
Luizaneg bets [$350.00 USD]
BinbsKGB raises [$770.00 USD]
Luizaneg calls [$420.00 USD]
BinbsKGB shows [ Ks, 6d ].
Luizaneg shows [ Qh, Kd ].
Luizaneg wins $971.00 USD
BinbsKGB wins $971.00 USD


You can get a hand converter/HUD for Play2B from this guy:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/16...place-1025613/

or add him on skype: pokerplaner.

I wouldnt be surprised if there is something not normal

how many hands you played against luizaneg before the hand appears with 98498 ?

i would like to hear some professional opinions .. cauz he bets on river and you raise him and he snapcalls ? with KQ ... its looks so shady .. its kinda unreal

anyhow, after getting all PIV players, i could imagine that they put some up for getting a nice cut out of this deal ...

I'm just now getting time to really read through the replies here. The three bolded are the 3 guys I played. I hadn't talked to any other play2b players before making my post and didn't know history on any players so hearing from a few people that all of those guys joined at the same time and all started crushing in the same bizarre fishy style is just another pretty weird coincidence to add to the list.

I didn't notice until rereading that you had posted about the hh glitch thing so I just added that in case others missed that potentially important bit in what was a pretty long merged post. I wasn't even aware of that issue when I first posted this since I cant review the histories. My skin has no client option and there is no convertor that I know of that can do anything with the browser based hands.

Everyone with hands on these guys or has played against them: just get in touch with alex on skype and send the files to him. He can probably convert everything and get it all in one database. Right now alex has a 15 sample of their 4 bet success rate at 92%. That is really high but sample is pretty small. If it is still something like that after 50 or so hands then you have extremely conclusive evidence statistically.

I sent support the following email:

---------------------------


Hello,

I just want to direct you to this post on 2 + 2 poker forums. We are a couple of professional players who feel that we have been playing against players who are somehow able to see our holecards or are somehow cheating. They all play a certain style which is very similar and they also never seem to lose.

I want to show you this thread that we have started and you should contact your higher ups immediately because this is going to **** up all traffic to your network if you dont do something about this.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...users-1357549/

This is the reason I have not been playing on your site for the last two weeks. I ask that you put all rake requirements for our so called 'bonus' on hold untill this is cleared up.

There is clearly something fishy going on here with these players who are mentioned in the thread and you need to investighate this immediately!!

-neversaynever
-Hurricane
-kinder
-PumpmyRoll
-Luizaneg

Also did you know that your hand history format is totally glitchy and doesnt work 100% correctly?? Sometimes the hand history shows what peiople were holding even tho the hand doesnt go to showdown and sometimes the next hand history will repeat the same hand as shown down, whicih isnt accurate at all.

Your hand histories are the most appalling and unprofessional that Ive ever seen in the industry.

Please show this email to people in your security department and the higher ups. This publicity is very bad news for your network.
--
Kind regards/Med venlig hilsen,

Alex XXX

Jesus christ guys. WTF is this last e-mail man?

You got cheated at PIV. You getting cheated now, and you still try to find any reason to keep playing in these shady sites?

If it turns out to be true that someone is superusing, and it sounds like it is if the above is at all accurate, I will again be amazed at how painfully stupid the person doing it is. Potripper just could not stop himself from playing in an insanely obvious (obvious that he could see others' hole cards) way and apparently neither can these idiots (or idiot, if it's one person on all the accounts).

Thanks for sending something. Let us know when/if there is a response.

Playing on play2b was the only viable option given to some people who wanted hope of getting their frozen/stolen funds from PIV. Funds were transferred there and people were told if they raked x amount they could withdraw y amount. I don't think anyone was terribly excited about it but of the choices available it seemed best for some. Just because it's not surprising that more shadiness is occurring doesn't mean we should just accept it. At the very least this is getting the word out and possibly stopping others from being cheated. Thanks for the valuable input though.

Yeah, it seems pretty clear that if this is super-using it is being done by someone that know little to nothing about poker.

I do not want to be douchebag, but after this move (PIV transferring money to another room, as bonus) I would take the loss, and move forward.

There is no guarantees that after releasing bonus (paying 75% rake) you get your money. I hope I am wrong, but my gutfeeling telling that getting money after raking required amount, you are underdog there.

If you are winning player, you get a stake easily, and probably you are building the same roll with almost same timeframe but now you have all guarantees.

Dear Alex,

Please accept our apologies for a late reply. We will look into this and get back to you as soon as possible.


Best Regards,

Play2B Support

Ok some good news.

I think even tho they are investigating, we should collect as much data/hands as we can and run through some filters to see if there is anything fishy going on. Does anyone know someone who could help us with this?

-------------------------

Hello Alex,

Please be informed that we have followed the thread at 2+2 and we are taking all observations very seriously and it is currently being investigated.

At the moment, the 5 suspicious accounts which are mentioned in the thread are currently suspended for investigation.

We will get back to you as soon as this matter has been fully investigated.

--
Best Regards,
Poker Security Department
Play2B Network

Stopped reading at "5b jammed 45ss called by 82o". Sounds super shady, id proly stop playing on the site after that hand.

This is good news. I will be curious to hear what they say when the investigation ends. At least the accounts cannot continue cheating for the moment and hopefully they did not think to withdraw any funds prior to the suspensions. Good luck.

It's been a fun morning of detective work here. Like I mentioned before I was not able to review my play2b hands because my skin only had a browser based version that didn't save hands. Binbs sent over his HHs this morning though and I've been going through them.

I started out by just looking at hands that went to showdown and thought/hoped it would be pretty obvious from that. After looking through those for a while, though, I really started to doubt this whole thing. "Maybe it was just a bunch of coincidences and these guys just all play a similar style that looks really fishy but actually isn't that bad and it's tilting everyone's head off." I didn't find any damning evidence there at all.

Then I ran some filters. Granted this is a small sample size to work with (3200 hands) but of the 676 hands that our alleged superuser group raised pf... they lost 40 . When I filtered for "raise raise" pf there were only 12 examples but they won 100% and just like in my experience they never 4b vs a strong hand. Finally, of the 54 hands that they bet on the river they won... wait for it... 54. Very interested to see how the investigation goes. Cheers guys

Wow, the ghost of Stuey Ungar? Or pathetically stupid cheats? Very, very curious to hear what the site says after their investigation...