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Seriously - scammed by PartyPoker for k! Seriously - scammed by PartyPoker for k!

07-16-2015 , 08:28 PM
u r presenting well-reasoned arguments, definitely enough to get party's attention

another thing that might help since ur account at 2p2 is so new, do u have accounts at other poker forums where u have much more history? this will give u more credibility and eliminate any doubt that ur a regular at these stakes
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07-16-2015 , 08:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsOnlyChips
u r presenting well-reasoned arguments, definitely enough to get party's attention

another thing that might help since ur account at 2p2 is so new, do u have accounts at other poker forums where u have much more history? this will give u more credibility and eliminate any doubt that ur a regular at these stakes
If I would have been active on forums it definitely would have been on here, I cannot prove me being a regular via forum screennames but I think there is another way that I thought of just now:

Despite me having very few hands at that stake (for reasons similar to the ones I present for regs at Party Poker plus the fact that I only started playing on William Hill with this sn after Betfred (both are on the Ipoker network) decided to no longer cater to customers from my country, I am one of the players that always holds down a table on the Ipoker 5/10 pound tables and have for a very long time since I decided to defend my tables there. My screenname on there is BonChanse, I play far from everyone but if there are any Ipoker regulars that read this I would really love if you could please verify if you have seen me sitting those stakes even though I might not have played you.

Last edited by agh; 07-16-2015 at 08:57 PM.
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07-16-2015 , 08:44 PM
out of curiousty why do you play 1k-2k when you'd make more money playing 25 and 50nl for a 15-20bb winrate? You also would be able to keep low rolls online which is always a plus.
Seriously - scammed by PartyPoker for k! Quote
07-16-2015 , 08:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MX210
out of curiousty why do you play 1k-2k when you'd make more money playing 25 and 50nl for a 15-20bb winrate? You also would be able to keep low rolls online which is always a plus.
This year I am really only playing semi-professionally (evenings) so I would rather play way less hands even if it means I earn somewhat less, and besides when doing other things during the day grinding those limits becomes much harder. Also, on Party you can only sit one table if you are sitting the 10/20 and so far in my mind that has felt like the most profitable stake. Another large issue at HU at those limits if of course the rake.

As of now I haven´t worried about keeping a low roll online since I have nearly always played exclusively at the most reputable sites.

Last edited by agh; 07-16-2015 at 09:03 PM.
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07-17-2015 , 07:07 PM
My guess is that the $9,000 was hot money, (stolen credit card or whatever), and when they found he lost it to you, they mistakenly thought it was a prearranged chipdump, whereupon they could justify confiscating your total $25,000.

If they admit they are wrong, they'll have to lose the $9,000 themselves.

Why not compromise and offer to waive the $9,000, (even though you won it legitimately, in your opinion), if they return your balance to you, which, presumably, they agree is legitimate past winnings? You could also offer to accept that your account remains closed, so that they don't lose too much face, (as well as no money).
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07-17-2015 , 08:52 PM
@MH, as it shows to the site that he is more likely to be guilty. Sites hate freerolling (or at least should)
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07-17-2015 , 09:04 PM
Agree. If the OP is telling the truth and provides evidence he should not back down or compromise at all with regards to the funds. If Party let $9,000 be deposited by stolen credit cards (is that even possible these days) then they are responsible for that loss, not the players that won it in a fair manner.

If the account was hacked and the funds lost in a fair manner that is a shame, but the money should not be returned either to the hacked player.

Edit - logged into Party and the max credit card deposit is $100,000. That's kind of crazy. In contrast Stars limits are $640 per day and $2,000 per month.

Last edited by Monteroy; 07-17-2015 at 09:14 PM.
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07-17-2015 , 09:10 PM
Mike and Pmarr - thank you so much for taking an interest in this, truly. Let me update you on where this stands:

I was phoned two nights ago by them and I was supposed to recieve a phonecall from them last night, and did not. That was a sleepless night, Then I was supposed to get a phonecall from them tonight. I did not. At 22.30 om, I called and asked what whas going on. After putting me on hold, they come back and assure me I will recieve a phonecall within one to two hours. Four and a half hours later, just now that is, and desperate for some kind of word or resolution, I call and am let known that they cannot speak to me tonight and will need another 24 hours. So another tough night ahead. That is where we stand right now.

Mike, if it is indeed stolen money which I am presuming it is I guess they can propose something, I dont know what the standard procedure is in those cases tbh. What is your opinion on this Pmarr? And what is standard practice?

But in no way will I agree to let my account be closed for something I have not done so they can save face, not a chance. I know that was a helpful suggestion Mike but there is just no way I would agree to that under any circumstances.

There is zero, and I mean zero proof linking me to a chipdump here. I have taken a lot of time to show that my volume is completely in line with the regs that sit that stake the most, gone through all the largest hands (and offered to go through the rest), and put up all hands publicly in case anyone would want to see them. I cant even fnd hands that LOOK funny played from my perspective. After now having looked through everything in more detail I don´t even believe there is a shred of even circumstantial proof linking me to a chipdump.

Last edited by agh; 07-17-2015 at 09:23 PM.
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07-17-2015 , 09:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy
Agree. If the OP is telling the truth and provides evidence he should not back down or compromise at all with regards to the funds. If Party let $9,000 be deposited by stolen credit cards (is that even possible these days) then they are responsible for that loss, not the players that won it in a fair manner.

If the account was hacked and the funds lost in a fair manner that is a shame, but the money should not be returned either to the hacked player.
Monteroy, thank you as well for taking an interest, especially since you were suspicious of me initially. Ok, is this your opinion Monteroy or is this in fact standard industry practice?
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07-17-2015 , 09:24 PM
I have never heard of funds that were won legitimately being removed from a player account (at least on the major sites, cannot speak for the tiny ones).

Your game type is one which causes a lot of issues as it is the choice of chip dumpers, so I have no doubt some innocent winners were screwed in the past.

I do not know what any specific sites "official policy" on this type of thing is, but imagine if a person deposits $500 with a stolen credit card and plays a bunch of 10NL and loses it all over time to dozens of players. The site going to take the money from the players? If they do will they re-imburse the rake for the hands? I doubt it.

Just keep the pressure on, but always be polite and professional. Point out this thread to them every chance you can get so they can see the evidence you posted and the reaction. Try to be a bit patient, and think of it this way, every day they do not call (when they promised they would) works against them.
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07-17-2015 , 09:58 PM
Probably not relevant, but opponent's name sounds Norwegian or Scandinavian.
Jørgen Ler (Jørgen laughs) and a lot of surnames start with Ler.
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07-17-2015 , 11:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Haven

Why not compromise and offer to waive the $9,000, (even though you won it legitimately, in your opinion), if they return your balance to you, which, presumably, they agree is legitimate past winnings? You could also offer to accept that your account remains closed, so that they don't lose too much face, (as well as no money).
This is simply unacceptable. If he was not involved in any shady business his full roll should be returned. If that is not the case any player on Party could be getting freerolled at any given time. I don't believe there is any space(or should be) for gray area.
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07-18-2015 , 01:15 AM
if party let a player deposit and lose 9k with a stolen credit card that is their own dumb ass fault and they are responsible to eat that 9k.

imo- they are just trying not to eat that 9k by falsely trying to link you to a chipdump to justify their stealing your roll from you. even worse they're trying to steal an added bonus for themselves from you too.

the scariest part is that party seems to have such methods and techniques preplanned and staff trained and used to BS-ing the players and those they try to run similar hussles on. it seems like idiocy and incompetence but in reality they just delay and delay until people lose hope and give up.
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07-18-2015 , 04:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by noImagination
This is simply unacceptable. If he was not involved in any shady business his full roll should be returned. If that is not the case any player on Party could be getting freerolled at any given time. I don't believe there is any space(or should be) for gray area.
The point I was trying to make is that, as pmarrsouth says, from Party's pov it must have looked like a chipdump, so they don't want to back down now or they'll open the floodgates for actual scammers to try the same things. However, they must see that there is some doubt, (there very often is in looking at suspected internet poker cheating), and my suggestion covers both scenarios, (that it was or it wasn't a chipdump), in that they don't lose money; they do lose a customer they thought and might still think was likely to be involved with a chipdumper; they don't have to lose face; and, perhaps most important to them and the morale of their employees, they don't have to admit that their Fraud Squad made a mistake.

It's virtually impossible to argue against them if they still believe a scam is involved. They don't have to reveal IP addresses of the parties involved; they don't have to give the basic reasons that led them to look at the relevant gameplay; they don't have to show that previous scammers used exactly the same tactics; etc; etc.

I can understand totally that agh doesn't want to admit any guilt if he is innocent, but I don't think he has to if he compromises with the aim of getting his own money back instead of possibly losing it all. Similarly, Party could say, in neutral terms, that they have reviewed the entire situation and decided to return the previous balance, but the decision to disallow further play, (which is always within their rights), stands. Both sides would agree to disagree, in effect, and both could walk away from each other with heads held high.
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07-18-2015 , 05:36 AM
The morale of their employees and the perfect record of their fraud squad are not relevant. If the OP won the money in a fair manner then he should get that money, and as well an apology from Party Poker for the mistakes they made in their accusations.

I get the "slippery slope" concept you mention, but realistically that does not apply in these cases. Nearly all of the "I got robbed" threads get debunked quickly, and aside from some relatively naive people who want to believe any bad post - most claims like this have a strong burden of proof on the person making the claim of a theft.

This OP seems to have provided an interesting amount of supporting evidence, and a story that better fits legitimate play than a standard chip dump.

Other companies have made errors like that in the past. One ipoker one was linked, and I mentioned one with a sports betting site (still cannot find the link though), and I am sure Pokerstars has reversed some decisions as well upon greater review.

Unlike poorme - I do not think Party Poker has any criminal or malicious intent. Those are common paranoid beliefs that tend to distract from the actual situation rather than help it. However, I do believe companies like this use standardized investigative techniques, and while that works in the vast majority of cases there are times where a more detailed investigation is warranted.
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07-18-2015 , 10:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
Probably not relevant, but opponent's name sounds Norwegian or Scandinavian.
Jørgen Ler (Jørgen laughs) and a lot of surnames start with Ler.
I had thought it was German since I did not make that connection but yes, that is correct. If he is Norwegian maybe that has also been a connection to me being in Sweden.

Also, this could have been premeditated so don´t know if it counts in my favour, but after he busted I followed him to another heads up table where he sat another player and I joined the waitlist. All in all, I also think my overall patterns, hand history and analysis, time sat at tables, other funds won etc is fairly far from the profile of the average chipdumper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Haven
The point I was trying to make is that, as pmarrsouth says, from Party's pov it must have looked like a chipdump, so they don't want to back down now or they'll open the floodgates for actual scammers to try the same things. However, they must see that there is some doubt, (there very often is in looking at suspected internet poker cheating), and my suggestion covers both scenarios, (that it was or it wasn't a chipdump), in that they don't lose money; they do lose a customer they thought and might still think was likely to be involved with a chipdumper; they don't have to lose face; and, perhaps most important to them and the morale of their employees, they don't have to admit that their Fraud Squad made a mistake.

It's virtually impossible to argue against them if they still believe a scam is involved. They don't have to reveal IP addresses of the parties involved; they don't have to give the basic reasons that led them to look at the relevant gameplay; they don't have to show that previous scammers used exactly the same tactics; etc; etc.

I can understand totally that agh doesn't want to admit any guilt if he is innocent, but I don't think he has to if he compromises with the aim of getting his own money back instead of possibly losing it all. Similarly, Party could say, in neutral terms, that they have reviewed the entire situation and decided to return the previous balance, but the decision to disallow further play, (which is always within their rights), stands. Both sides would agree to disagree, in effect, and both could walk away from each other with heads held high.
This is what scares me - if they decide to choose the dishonourable route and somebody is trying to save his / her job they might just deem that the bad pr is worth it. My paranoia is telling me that right now they are taking the extra tme in order to find any other little fault with my account so they do not have to take the loss.

However, in the end, even though I am getting desperate, the one thing I really don´t want Mike is the closure of my account. That is in essence and in spirit an admittance of guilt even if we reach a compromise, a compromise that I will basically have been blackmailed into.

Last edited by Mike Haven; 07-18-2015 at 11:54 AM. Reason: 2 posts merged
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07-18-2015 , 11:55 AM
Been following thread, nothing useful to add, just wish you the best of luck in getting the money back.
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07-18-2015 , 05:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by noImagination
This is simply unacceptable. If he was not involved in any shady business his full roll should be returned. If that is not the case any player on Party could be getting freerolled at any given time. I don't believe there is any space(or should be) for gray area.
(Apologies, tredi to use multi-quotes but couldnt figure it out somehow)

I see. I can see why as well. The point in Partys favour I guess is my desperation and them being in such a position of control without wanting to communicate with me on anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy
The morale of their employees and the perfect record of their fraud squad are not relevant. If the OP won the money in a fair manner then he should get that money, and as well an apology from Party Poker for the mistakes they made in their accusations.

I get the "slippery slope" concept you mention, but realistically that does not apply in these cases. Nearly all of the "I got robbed" threads get debunked quickly, and aside from some relatively naive people who want to believe any bad post - most claims like this have a strong burden of proof on the person making the claim of a theft.

This OP seems to have provided an interesting amount of supporting evidence, and a story that better fits legitimate play than a standard chip dump.

Other companies have made errors like that in the past. One ipoker one was linked, and I mentioned one with a sports betting site (still cannot find the link though), and I am sure Pokerstars has reversed some decisions as well upon greater review.

Unlike poorme - I do not think Party Poker has any criminal or malicious intent. Those are common paranoid beliefs that tend to distract from the actual situation rather than help it. However, I do believe companies like this use standardized investigative techniques, and while that works in the vast majority of cases there are times where a more detailed investigation is warranted.

An update on the situation:

For the 4th time, after telling me I will be getting a ring within either 24 hours or even 1-2 hours, I still hadn´t recieved a phonecall from them by 10.30 pm tonight. I called, once again they say they need another 24-48 hours.

Now this could be totally delusional but my new fear is that they have concluded that I am innocent, which anyone with any type of competence should see within a few hours of reviewing this case, and are now spending multiple days trying to concoct a story or gather together any type of circumstantial evidence in order save face / and or not have to pay the amount that was deposited with the hot credit card.

It may even be a case where the fault is not even with the company as a whole but a few individuals working within the security team whos very job it is to not allow a large fraudelent deposit like this to slip through in the first place. Is that my fatigue and sleep deprivation talking or is that a valid point?

Last edited by Mike Haven; 07-19-2015 at 06:41 AM. Reason: 2 posts merged
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07-18-2015 , 06:27 PM
Take a deep breath and count to 10 and calm down. I do appreciate the money involved and the frustration, but stay calm and professional, and every single time they delay it that looks better for you and worse for them (from a customer service and professionalism perspective).

Worry about reporting them to the New Jersey government (even though your issue is not with the US area), and whether they are huddling to create some crazy story after they tell you what they decide. Obviously if they keep saying 24 more hours for another week it reaches the point of absurdity, but it is not quite there yet. Party Poker is not a tiny site run by two dudes in a basement. They are not going to create a crazy fake story over a trivial amount of money to them. Stay calm.

For now, call them every night and politely ask for an update and remind them of this thread, and ask if they need even more details from you and thank them for taking the time in advance to resolve this properly. The issue is not going anywhere until they provide a well explained resolution.
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07-18-2015 , 06:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by agh
Mike, if it is indeed stolen money which I am presuming it is I guess they can propose something, I dont know what the standard procedure is in those cases tbh. What is your opinion on this Pmarr? And what is standard practice?
As Monteroy stated, legit sites really dont take legtimately won funds from a player - I would class Party as being a legit site for this type of scenerio


Quote:
Originally Posted by agh
There is zero, and I mean zero proof linking me to a chipdump here.
Just to play devils, we are only getting one side here - but you are much more forthcoming than 99% of the people who start a thread like this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy
Your game type is one which causes a lot of issues as it is the choice of chip dumpers, so I have no doubt some innocent winners were screwed in the past.

I do not know what any specific sites "official policy" on this type of thing is, but imagine if a person deposits $500 with a stolen credit card and plays a bunch of 10NL and loses it all over time to dozens of players. The site going to take the money from the players? If they do will they re-imburse the rake for the hands? I doubt it.

Just keep the pressure on, but always be polite and professional. Point out this thread to them every chance you can get so they can see the evidence you posted and the reaction. Try to be a bit patient, and think of it this way, every day they do not call (when they promised they would) works against them.
+1 to all this, especially the first line

Quote:
Originally Posted by agh
Also, this could have been premeditated so don´t know if it counts in my favour, but after he busted I followed him to another heads up table where he sat another player and I joined the waitlist.
my guess is that they had no clue about this unless you mentioned it to them

Quote:
Originally Posted by agh
This is what scares me - if they decide to choose the dishonourable route and somebody is trying to save his / her job they might just deem that the bad pr is worth it. My paranoia is telling me that right now they are taking the extra tme in order to find any other little fault with my account so they do not have to take the loss.
It can easily be escalated high enough level (usually just mgmt) to where the job saving part is not an issue. And unless the agent(s) involved had a history of doing this, its unlikely that anyone ever gets fired for it. Mistakes happen, your type of case could 95% match all the other completely fraudulent cases that have been picked up this month and its just been caught in the same net. I doubt they are too damaged by any such "bad pr", vast majority of poker players dont even know that forums exist. If they realized that they made a mistake, I presume that your account would be opened right away. Also (I hope) that the typical agent who may have come across this has to get some sort of mgmt approval to close your account and seize the large amount of funds - maybe even a couple of levels of approval. Agent presents a case, with evidence to support it and a manger will approve or deny it. Depending on how skilled certain parties are, different outcomes can occur. You are dealing with humans after all

Quote:
Originally Posted by agh
However, in the end, even though I am getting desperate, the one thing I really don´t want Mike is the closure of my account. That is in essence and in spirit an admittance of guilt even if we reach a compromise, a compromise that I will basically have been blackmailed into.
I know in what way you are answering this, but as already pointed out, sites can close your account at any time for "no" reason - of course funds should be returned

This could be a case where they figure that they are not 100% sure about what went on, so they refund the seizure, allow you to cashout your full balance and keep your account closed. That certainly happens a bit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy
Party Poker is not a tiny site run by two dudes in a basement. They are not going to create a crazy fake story over a trivial amount of money to them. Stay calm.
This, 100%

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monteroy
For now, call them every night and politely ask for an update and remind them of this thread, and ask if they need even more details from you and thank them for taking the time in advance to resolve this properly. The issue is not going anywhere until they provide a well explained resolution.
I dont agree with the timeframe listed here, rest is good.

I am also surprised that you being told that you will receive a call on a weekend. IMO, the person telling you about this phone call is some rand CS agent who is reading some notes on your account. I presume that the person(s) now dealing with this are not in the office on a saturday and sunday. Just relax and try to forget about it until monday afternoon

Last edited by Mike Haven; 07-19-2015 at 06:46 AM. Reason: 2 posts merged
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07-18-2015 , 06:50 PM
Pmarr and Monteroy;

Thank you both, those posts served to calm me down quite a bit. Based on your posts I will call them again tomorrow if they have not contacted me and not freak out if they ask for another extension tomorrow, and try to keep calm until monday. If I hear anything I will be immediately update this thread, without this thread I wouldn´t have made it through these past few days in any kind of decent shape, so thanks a bunch to everyone following this story.
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07-18-2015 , 06:57 PM
literally dont call them on a sunday, you will only tilt yourself
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07-18-2015 , 07:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmarrsouth
literally dont call them on a sunday, you will only tilt yourself
Ok, I will refrain from that tomorrow, as in fact they said 24 - 48 hours this time. I will call them on monday and not expect too mcuh tomorrow.
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07-18-2015 , 09:12 PM
24-48 hr is a typical customer service response

i would expect at least 1 week for a case of this complexity to be resolved, maybe even closer to 2 weeks

as others have said, be patient and dont go on these rollercoaster of emotions on a daily basis if they dont respond
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07-18-2015 , 09:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsOnlyChips
24-48 hr is a typical customer service response

i would expect at least 1 week for a case of this complexity to be resolved, maybe even closer to 2 weeks

as others have said, be patient and dont go on these rollercoaster of emotions on a daily basis if they dont respond
Will heed that advice as well, thank you. I believe my account was closed on the 28th of June if I am not mistaken so it has been over twenty days in total, and about a week since they irreversably closed the account. I will keep it calm until they come back with something specific.
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