I think we are either understanding this wrong or it will be modified. Stars wouldn't make the VIP system substantially worse.

Based on my 50nl FR numbers the vpp/hand declines from .17 to .13 .

For a gold star that is $128 less per 100k hands.


25nl FR .087 to .067

I really love the fact that the new system is attempting to stagger the playing field and even things out for everyone. Scottyy thanks for moving this in the right direction.

However, I calculated the base rakeback to be 8% (not including platinum etc modifiers) which is certainly less than I'm receiving right now at 50NL. I think that a 6xVPP per dollar thing might fair significantly better towards being fair.. but I'm just a biased player/grinder.

So? Since when has this been a need for any players?

This statement is comparable to a ballot being cast to the public, and it reading:

Should the government keep taxes the same, or lower them?

[x] Lower
[ ] Remain the same

When in actuality it's true the net tax will be lowered, it ends up being raised a fraction for 95% of the citizens and lowered incredibly for the rest. Yes, so what if in this case the proportion of players being affected is closer together, it's still a totall bull**** reason to be listed as support for the upcoming change.


The people who had trouble understanding the current system won't suddenly become better at basic arithmetic with this new one.

This plan sucks, and I'm sure you can find a way to get more VPP's to games requiring more rake paid, such as 6-max and HU, without taking anything away from your extremely loyal and high volume FR players.

My initial calculations lead me to believe that this is not good news; at least not for $1/2 players.

Over the 828k hands that I have on my laptop for this year at $1/2, I earned 381,692 VPPs which is an average of 0.46 VPP/hand.

In that time, I paid $62,959 in rake, which would equate to just 314,795 VPPs. (Obviously in the new system one wouldn't be earning VPPs just on the rake they pay, but it would still average out to that number.)

So, under the new system I would only have averaged 0.38 VPP/hand!!!!!

Under the current system I am earning over 21% more VPP/hand than this proposed new system.

By the end of this year, approx. $130k of my profit will come from VPPs (I'm aiming for 1.25MM VPPs.) Under the new system I would earn $22,000 LESS.

For someone just going for SNE at $1/2 NL, the current approx. value of $110k will now only be worth approx $90k at $1/2. (Technically, reaching SNE would still have the same value, but it would take far longer, hence the decrease in value of ~20%.)

****** PLEASE NOTE: IT IS LATE, I HAVE BEEN PLAYING FOR THE LAST 6 HOURS, I'M TIRED, AND I HAVE PERFORMED THESE CALCULATIONS HASTILY BEFORE I GO TO SLEEP! I MAY HAVE OVER-LOOKED SOMETHING OR MADE A MISTAKE. (I HOPE SO.) ********

However, if the calculations are close enough, then it would be a disaster. It would also be foul play to implement them mid-year if the proposed changes are for the worse. In fact, I'd like to high-light that point: IF THE CHANGES ARE IN FACT FOR THE WORSE, AND THEY ARE MADE BEFORE THE END OF THE YEAR, THEN THAT WOULD BE COMPLETELY BELOW THE BELT.

My advice would be to keep things as they are, or risk losing all the goodwill and loyalty that Pokerstars has always worked so hard for.

this sucks so hard!

doesn't pokerstars earn enough money yet or why do they have to reduce the rakeback so drastically?

hongzhong is going to jump out a window

guess I am not making SNE by playing FR anymore gg

Getting back the $30mill or so stolen from them.

I'm not going for sne or anything close to it but this is truth.

ya... 6VPPs per dollar kind of solves everyones issue afaik... even FR players will have nothing to b!tch about any more.

as a frer i disagree with this decision

i would also like to add you are not very nice in doing this,

Elasticity of demand-- because we're still going to give them business.

Presumably these changes won't come into affect if, as expected, the vast majority of players will end up disappointed and angry? Otherwise, there would be no point in requesting feedback.

The change is good, because it makes the VIP system fairer.

Having said that, I still dont understand why you use the dealt rake method. Its just unfair that everyone at the table gets the same amount of VPPs. Shorties and Nits produce half as much rake as LAGs like me but get the same amount of VPPs/rakeback. That is just unfair. If you are already going to change the VIP system, you should switch to the contriputed rake method, something like 1VPP/20c rake contriputed to the pot. That would be much fairer.

I think i like this change since it would be mimicking regular rakeback better.

slightly off topic but :if you change things anyway could you introduce something that promots starting new tables like UB used to have.
Now you often see a 10-20 fr flhe table with sometimes upto 16 ppl waiting and that being the only game of that type going.