Rake-Free & Open Poker Room, Run By the Poker Community?

[Invertible]

I really like your idea, its been called for by the community for a while now, but nobody has stepped up. I think there are a lot of players who would invest in a idea like this if there are a group of people that will get it done.

But saying all that, I think that the easiest way for this to happen is for a investment group to buy a small existing network and go from there. Starting something from scratch is a very long process unless you throw ALOT of money at it.

Next point is, are you sure having a 100% rake free room is the best business model. To attract fish you need a well built platform and good advertising which all cost $$$$. No fish, no poker room

[LirvA]

As far as stress testing, send a poster by the name of wellju a PM. That's what he does for a living.

Not a priority to speak to a lawyer? With something like online poker, if one of your priorities isn't to make sure you're not going to get ****ed in the ass by some law, you're doing it wrong.

I'd like nothing more than to see this take off and become successful and a medium for players to make a lot of money, but the eternal pessimist in me says even if you do make it that far, you'll get ****ed in the ass by governments and it would all come crashing down.

[genjix]

Originally Posted by LirvA

As far as stress testing, send a poster by the name of wellju a PM. That's what he does for a living.

Not a priority to speak to a lawyer? With something like online poker, if one of your priorities isn't to make sure you're not going to get ****ed in the ass by some law, you're doing it wrong.

Thanks for the tip about wellju. Also love your avatar

It's not a priority because we're a multi-headed medusa; cut off our head and more will replace it. Anyone can setup a Poker site leading to competition (free market ftw). Additionally Poker sites aren't connected to exchanges, and the protocol is able to federate itself across many countries.

That's why I'm emphasising that the software is free. Anyone can make improvements. Anyone can setup a rival site.

Technology wins.

[CantFold2u]

The only way in which there can be winning players, solid winning players and massive winning players is for there to be losing players, solid losing players and massive losing players. There can only be more money moving up to higher stakes if there is plenty of it being lost at lower stakes.

The model of a "everyone is a winner" poker room doesn't work - since in order for money to be won it needs to be lost elsewhere. As such the main service rooms such as PokerStars provide (and the main reason we players need them) is not that they provide software but that they provide marketing and retention measures that make sure players are depositing new money on a regular basis.

That being said - how are you planning on fueling player winnings and attracting and retaining regular losing players that pump money into the system on a daily basis?

I see the bit-coin-currency system as a key detracting point for the recreational fish - just as the entire "community based programing" approach will quickly have the recreational constantly losing player thinking that everything is rigged against him. As brought forth by a previous user - the suspicion that certain groups programmed trojans, super-user accounts or rigged algorithms will be extremely high in an environment where many people have access to the code.

[fluffysheap]

I have thought for a while that a distributed game protocol using bitcoin or some other e-cash for transactions would be just about impervious to government intervention. Also e-cash systems historically have failed, probably because there was almost no real-world use for them. It was never really advantageous compared to just using regular money because there's never been a killer app for micropayments. Well, MMO games and second life are starting to approximate e-cash systems, so maybe bitcoin will be the one that is successful. Also, the time is right for micropayments now with ubiquitous mobile apps (how many bitcoins for a smurfberry?)

It is not hard to buy bitcoin and it can be used more or less directly by an online poker site, so in event of continued DOJ pressure and no regulation bill, it may reach the point where it is easier to play on such a site than to play on an established site using traditional money. On the other hand, there is no real reason Stars, etc couldn't add a bitcoin deposit option. It is not really necessary for bitcoin and a community-based site to be coupled together.

The thing about bitcoin is that because of their cryptography, it is equivalent to cash. There's not a paper trail. The person or organization selling the bitcoins does not know what they will be used for, when or where and does not need to be involved in the eventual spending of the bitcoins. There are many legal uses for bitcoins, so it would be almost impossible for the DOJ or anyone else to argue they are a gambling transaction processor, any more than the guy that hands you your withdrawal at the bank is facilitating underground gambling if you happen to take the cash to the back room in Chang Long's restaurant.

Bitcoin is hardly the first e-cash system, but every successive e-cash system has been better than the last, IMO Bitcoin's biggest flaw is the built-in deflation; the biggest risk is that someone will crack the proof-of-work system.

My cyberpunk instincts tell me that, if not Bitcoin, then some sort of cryptography-based cash will eventually rival government-backed fiat currency, as no government can resist debasing their currency. Cryptocash is also at least moderately resistant to the ever-growing government intrusion into financial privacy.

[hepzebah]

Originally Posted by CantFold2u

As such the main service rooms such as PokerStars provide (and the main reason we players need them) is not that they provide software but that they provide marketing and retention measures that make sure players are depositing new money on a regular basis.

.

+1

You can sing this. Like 2+2 the community will be populated with regs not losers. The payment methods will be usable by regs not losers. The site will appear trustworthy to regs not losers.

So why will regs play there?

[LirvA]

Originally Posted by genjix

Thanks for the tip about wellju. Also love your avatar

you're welcome and thanks

[hepzebah]

Originally Posted by fluffysheap

I have thought for a while that a distributed game protocol using bitcoin or some other e-cash for transactions would be just about impervious to government intervention. Also e-cash systems historically have failed, probably because there was almost no real-world use for them. It was never really advantageous compared to just using regular money because there's never been a killer app for micropayments. Well, MMO games and second life are starting to approximate e-cash systems, so maybe bitcoin will be the one that is successful. Also, the time is right for micropayments now with ubiquitous mobile apps (how many bitcoins for a smurfberry?)

It is not hard to buy bitcoin and it can be used more or less directly by an online poker site, so in event of continued DOJ pressure and no regulation bill, it may reach the point where it is easier to play on such a site than to play on an established site using traditional money. On the other hand, there is no real reason Stars, etc couldn't add a bitcoin deposit option. It is not really necessary for bitcoin and a community-based site to be coupled together.

The thing about bitcoin is that because of their cryptography, it is equivalent to cash. There's not a paper trail. The person or organization selling the bitcoins does not know what they will be used for, when or where and does not need to be involved in the eventual spending of the bitcoins. There are many legal uses for bitcoins, so it would be almost impossible for the DOJ or anyone else to argue they are a gambling transaction processor, any more than the guy that hands you your withdrawal at the bank is facilitating underground gambling if you happen to take the cash to the back room in Chang Long's restaurant.

Bitcoin is hardly the first e-cash system, but every successive e-cash system has been better than the last, IMO Bitcoin's biggest flaw is the built-in deflation; the biggest risk is that someone will crack the proof-of-work system.

My cyberpunk instincts tell me that, if not Bitcoin, then some sort of cryptography-based cash will eventually rival government-backed fiat currency, as no government can resist debasing their currency. Cryptocash is also at least moderately resistant to the ever-growing government intrusion into financial privacy.

OK can you tell me how you envisage a new player who surfs over to WikiPoker.com or whatever makes his first deposit? His second deposit? Talk me through the Bitcoin process.

[genjix]

Originally Posted by hepzebah

.
You can sing this. Like 2+2 the community will be populated with regs not losers. The payment methods will be usable by regs not losers. The site will appear trustworthy to regs not losers.

So why will regs play there?

Two choices:

- Play against bad regs with no rake.

- Play against 6 bad regs and 2 regfish and 1 donk with rake raping you.

That's how I see the situation at NL50, at least. I don't mind playing against other regs myself.

fluffysheap made a good correct post. He's obviously another hacker too.

[genjix]

Originally Posted by hepzebah

OK can you tell me how you envisage a new player who surfs over to WikiPoker.com or whatever makes his first deposit? His second deposit? Talk me through the Bitcoin process.

When you buy stuff on EBay, you're transferring $$ into your paypal account, then onto EBay.

Likewise you transfer $$ using BitcoinExchangeSiteX.com to your bitcoin account, then onto WikiPoker.com

[betsmart]

Originally Posted by genjix

Running a Poker site is not a high-cost expense.

I wonder where you got this from.

[genjix]

Originally Posted by betsmart

I wonder where you got this from.

I used to be a games programmer and a games designer working in industry. Technically the costs for making and running a Poker room are not high. Can't speak for the other costs (advertisement, ...). However I doubt that justifies the huge expense of rake.

Consider a game like WoW in which you pay a small monthly fee. Now the effort that goes into making all those game models, scripting those game scenarios, adding fallbacks for all the different 3D cards, ensuring realtime updates & downloading textures which uses tons of bandwidth IS a big cost. Yet they manage it for far less.

[CantFold2u]

Originally Posted by genjix

Two choices:

- Play against bad regs with no rake.

- Play against 6 bad regs and 2 regfish and 1 donk with rake raping you.

That's how I see the situation at NL50, at least. I don't mind playing against other regs myself.

fluffysheap made a good correct post. He's obviously another hacker too.

Bad regs will only continue playing at the site if they see some kind of profit. In this example in which the bad regs are actually losing against you (the good reg) they are in simple logic regression actually losing players --> since they need fish (aka regular depositors to actually) break even / win slightly. Thus they too will leave sooner or later.

There have been plenty of attempts at creating "rake free" poker rooms - and all of them are famous for populating the bottom spot on the poker-scout liquidity ranking - since they fail at bringing in the deposits that are actually required to fuel the winnings.

For a good winning player it can be massively -EV to move to a rakefree poker room if the delta in savings via rake is smaller than the delta in adjusted winrate. So if a player is winning e.g 8 bb/100 and paying 4 bb/100 in rake (RB calculated in already) he is left a 4 bb/100 winner. So if he has a 2 bb/100 edge over the regs at no-rake-nitfest room - he still ends up winning less than he did at the high rake room. This is without factoring in the capability to multi-table, table select, enjoy superior software, trusted company holding your money, etc. etc. etc.

[hepzebah]

Originally Posted by genjix

When you buy stuff on EBay, you're transferring $$ into your paypal account, then onto EBay.

Likewise you transfer $$ using BitcoinExchangeSiteX.com to your bitcoin account, then onto WikiPoker.com

OK I understand.

Paypal accepts payments from humans by humans putting their credit card information onto the PayPal site. PayPal then send this information to their acquirer who contacts the humans bank to debit the card (I've simplified, but you get the picture). The credit card transaction is coded as "Financial Payment" or "Money Transfer" or whatever. PayPal and their processor have been sanctioned to accept credit cards because they agree only to do gaming in certain countries, to reduce fraud, etc etc. This is strictly enforced and adhered to. If not, then VISA or MasterCard pull the plug, and no more VISA or MasterCard on PayPal. No more PayPal users.

As SOON as BitCoin starts being widely used (and by "Widely" I mean a few percent) on gaming sites, VISA and MasterCard will instruct the card issuing banks to treat BitCoin purchases as gaming purchases. They will also instruct the processors to treat any BitCoin sellers as gaming sellers. This will LITERALLY happen overnight, or maybe within 48 hours. It has happened before in lots of countries for lots of ewallets and ecurrency systems.

Example: In Norway earlier this year the law changed and the banks were told to decline all gaming transactions. Neteller still worked fine though, and players could use their cards on Neteller and deposit to the gambling sites. ONE DAY later anybody depositing to Neteller discovered that it was treated by their bank as a gaming transaction. That's it, game over. Doesn't matter if only 1% of Neteller's business in Norway is gaming, or whatever, VISA and MAsterCard call the shots, and Neteller must comply or risk not being able to accept ANY cards ANYWHERE.

You've missed a trick here with the payment side of things I'm afraid.

[doublec]

Originally Posted by hepzebah

OK can you tell me how you envisage a new player who surfs over to WikiPoker.com or whatever makes his first deposit? His second deposit? Talk me through the Bitcoin process.

Currently it's not all that easy. You either have to use an exchange (of which there are a few) or do a person-to-person trade on a forum or IRC. Most of the existing exchanges don't take PayPal or Credit Cards due to the risk of chargebacks. They take other currencies instead. The person-to-person trades use a web of trust so you need to become a trusted party first.

One would hope that this process becomes easier as bitcoin sees more usage - and usage is growing.

For those interested there is an existing poker room running that uses bitcoin. It uses open source web-based software. It's not very active as mostly only bitcoin users know about it but it's fun to use to see the concept of bitcoin funded poker in practice. This server is not related to genjix's project btw, his plans are far grander! I'm not involved in either project but am a bitcoin user.