Think a bit deeper here Bob. How is WTS calculated? It calculates your WTS when seen flop! At least that's the case in the major two tracking programs out there and I see no reason why PTR would calculate this differently.

Now guess what. If you're all in before the flop in pretty much every hand you choose to VPIP, then your WTS will probably skyrocket, no?

So when Needbeer comes out in this thread talking about how we all get it wrong and his game isn't based on preflop FE, and how he's a sick postflop player and potcontroller and whatnot, and then this statement is refuted by a HUGE tracked PTR sample of his 98% WTS, one has to ask oneself if he's intentionally lying or really not understanding where the REAL profit comes from in his own game (Which yields a 0.5ptbb/100 profit on the tables).

If we want to take it to the extreme we could say that it's guys like Nanonoko, who are putting Needbeer's Kids through College.

Okay, that's what I've been asking. Seems kind of silly if that's the case. Maybe somebody knows for sure, or knows how to get the other number?

I'm not positive but I think Micky might be right that what SNE2010 is looking at is an MGR figure and not the rake that he directly contributed.

It's definitely not a non-starter for SOME tighter players (including shortstackers) but that does not mean it is the case for all.

Also, if this is really something to get upset about then some of the other tighter deep-stack players out there should be criticized equally on that aspect and I don't recall ever see that happening really.

In other words, if you're a 13/10 style full-stack player or something (and perhaps also are high volume with a low to non-existent win-rate) then it's pretty hypocritical to be slamming somebody else's leeching tendencies off the system and their sky-high contributed rakeback %.

And I do think that some of the full-stack players who complain about the leeching and contributed % of the shortstacks would be surprised to learn that they actually have a higher % than the player they were calling a leech. So "don't go there" if you don't want that angle tossed right back at you (if you're a tighter than average player which I think many of the players around here are).

20bb-70bb
40bb-100bb

Block the shortstackers from fish who buyin for more than 70 bb just like fullstackers who don't want to play with shortstacking regs are effectively blocked from fish who buyin at the lower end due to the prevalence of shortstackers.

I don't really care or think about 13/10 guys. The only moment I think about them is when joining a table, because this is the time I make sure they're to my left.

The difference between the 13/10 fullstacker and the pro shortstacker is plain and simple the following.

The 13/10 FS is pretty much non-existent until he tells me "Dude, I've got AA, better get out of the way". Until then he lets me pound on the 30/10 to my right. I'm more than happy to pay the 13/10's rake in thsi case.

The pro shortstacker is not only not letting me do that as much as I want to. No, he's TARGETING my isolation raises SPECIFICALLY, because that's where he makes his profit. PREFLOP FOLD EQUITY for the 100th time !

okay, got it. Thanks for the correction and that does make sense. Still getting my coffee today.

Yes, I can see where even on the hands that he does play he steals the pot before the flop, etc. He does claim that more people have been adjusting and calling him down. And he certainly isn't a 10/8 type player as is the common perception of SS'ers. And when he DOES go to a showdown it's very frequently going to be to a max-rake (which is not nearly as often for deep-stack players if they end up checking through more often because they have to respect each other's big stacks). So I think there's still a chance that his contributed is probably reasonably close to his MGR when you look at all the factors.

If he were a 10/8 type player I think it would be a valid argument but as a 24/20 or whatever he is I really don't think it's a lock JUST because of the way he plays his shortstacks.

And, as I said, if that's where people want to throw their stones then some of the critics who play full-stacks but are fairly tight should be throwing them at themselves.

Lets say his contributed is 60% compared with a 50% MGR. That would really be quite similar to many of the deep-stack players who play a bit tighter than average too.



Obviously nanonoko isn't just making his money off the VIP system because his win-rate is ridiculous. But I thought he was generally a tighter than average player if I remember correctly. No biggie. Pretty hard to accuse him of being a leech when his win-rate is that huge. But I do believe that needbeer is getting involved in more hands than nanonoko. Nanonoko doesn't tend to passively cold-call his way into flops either. He will 3-bet pre-flop and push people out too. Which player sees more total flops or more total showdowns I have no idea.

But I really don't know that nanonoko's action at the tables is what is driving needbeer's VPP accumulation necessarily. My hunch is that needbeer has more max-rake hands (of course...nanonoko when he reaches max rake is far more likely to have a pot WAY past the max) but, again, I still don't think it's that big a deal regardless. I just don't know if it's accurate to refer to needbeer as riding nanonoko's action.

On top of that, I'm sure needbeer would be absolutely THRILLED and would get an increase in win-rate (and perhaps VPP accumulation) if nanonoko decided to stop playing forever.

Full Tilt activated rakeback on my old existing account a few weeks ago, and they appear to be increasingly doing this more and more recently. So, my level of interest in this topic has dropped significantly. It was the only reason I felt trapped at PokerStars. Which I suppose is how many full time SS'ers feel now. They are dependent on PokerStars keeping the exploitable 20bb game structure for their livelihood.

If PokerStars decides to keep the status quo and cater to mass multi-tabling push/fold SS'ers it will be interesting to see what happens to market share between stars and tilt. Personally, I believe it will be a terrible mistake on Stars part. However, it is nice to now be a passive observer with an alternative place to play.

Really? 100 times? You must get hit with that way more frequently than I do. Perhaps I have come back at them frequently enough too and that changes things. No idea since I don't know your game. But I just hear this type of "OMG...preflop fold equity and it's killing me again" type stuff from people who struggle to handle even the crappy or easily readable SS'ers. Obviously a player like needbeer jumps in there some too. Meh, whatever. you see 'preflop fold equity' and maybe every time you gave up you were correct to do so (again...no idea). But it's possible you gave up on opportunities where you should have been calling. I mean...somebody out there is giving them an extra boost by not playing correctly back at them. There's just no way everybody is playing the game and folding and calling with the same range against the SS'ers. It's almost like people are assuming that is the case though.

As I've said before, I think you can look at the stats on this and see that it's not as big an issue as some make it out to be (meaning it doesn't happen as frequently as some give it credit for).

Also, perhaps he's targeting you not because you are trying to iso but rather because you are easier to steal from when he does that. Maybe that's why I don't think it's as big a deal...because I play right back at them too.

I get what you are saying. But there is the possibility that some of it is on you too. Maybe not though. Maybe all those folds to the shortstacks were correct.

I was using Nanonoko as an example for a high volume FS player, who will see and actually PLAY flops. Yea, he 3bets a lot pre and this relies on preflop FE aswell. The difference is that he re-opens the action with his 3bets while shortstackers "Put the man to a decision for all his chips." (or his entire effstack for that matter). A fullstacker opens himself uo to get rebluffed, when he reraises pre, a shortstacker doesn't and that's solely based ona flaw in the system, NOT a skill advantage.

Shortstackers do have an inherent edge versus fullstackers. No ****ing ****. However, they make more money against fish. There are definitely some shortstackers who would prefer no fullstack regs on their tables.

Needbeer plays a lot of hands at 5/10 6max. When these games are full he is almost always playing with 2 other shortstack regs, and 1 fish. This fish often has less than 50BB. The other 2 players will either both be regs (either fullstack or shortstack) or 1 fish and 1 reg. People overestimate how much of his profit at 5/10 is due to inherent advantage.

Really? You need an edge [either in terms of ability or in terms of buy-in] over the game in order to break even after rake is taken. Given that few shortstackers make more than 1 ptbb/100 as things stand, I suspect that there are few who have enough of an edge on the game to beat the rake at a cap table.

IMO cap tables need to take less rake than standard tables in order to be viable, otherwise there won't be the critical mass of regs to keep the games going.

Lol yeah, because if he made more money with his big box of skill fullstacking he'd be shortstacking.

I'm not talking about pokerstrategy sweatshop chartbots (of which a huge chunk are my fellow countrymen btw) These guys never really bothered me when i had ONE of them at my table. I obv had their chart and could adjust my calling ranges perfectly against them. They only started to bother me when they multiplied like ****ing hamsters, making every 20BB table a preflop game essentially.

I might not sound like that in my recent posts but up until now I actually respected guys like Imsakidd, and Needbeer for what they were doing. Guys like these made a huge effort to think about ranges, FE and everything SS related BY THEMSELVES and came up with a strategy that exploits the flaw in the sytem to the max. It's not their fault that this flaw is there. so while I respect the guys, I certainly don't have to repsct the flaw in the system and obv want to see it changed.

dude what the **** is this chart everyone is talking about seriously??

the one that u have infront of your monitor while u are playing.