PokerStars statement on min/max buyin on big bet tables - Page 11 - Internet Poker

blackize · 02-26-2010, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5thStreetHog

You keep talking about the rules, well there is going to be new rules. These rules will make everyone play on an even playing field, taking away the advantage you gained by exploiting a flaw in the old rules, so take your own advice and accept it.

And when the rules change I'll adjust. I've said that I'll support what analysis of the survey of casual players concludes. But I don't think such drastic changes should be made 1/3 of the way through Stars' biggest promotion.

If Stars were to change the games so drastically in April I think they need to do something to compensate any shortstacker on pace for SNE. I don't currently have any ideas for how to equitably do this though.

sixers030409 · 02-26-2010, 02:06 AM

Haven't read the thread, but just wanna say that I am a fullstacker and have already made the move to FTP. Games are much better at ftp but I would prob move back to stars if they switch the min buy in simply because stars vip system>>> ftps.

spooky shadows · 02-26-2010, 02:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackize

If Stars were to change the games so drastically in April I think they need to do something to compensate any shortstacker on pace for SNE. I don't currently have any ideas for how to equitably do this though.

sorry but i laughed really hard at this notion

blackize · 02-26-2010, 02:17 AM

Heh. Stars has always been pretty good about being fair to their players so I imagine they'll do something for the shortstacked grinders should they be adversely affected by Stars' decision.

FWIW I'm not even close to on pace for SNE. In fact if I don't put in some volume before the end of the month I won't even be Supernova anymore.

dxu05 · 02-26-2010, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackize

A couple things:

1) Long time sustainability is a function of the amount of money coming into the games vs the amount coming out. It would be hard to argue that shortstacking adversely affects this as they serve to protect fish in many situations and it is much less effective exploiting fish as a shortstacker than as a fullstacker. If shortstackers disappear, fullstack winrates go up but the total amount of money coming out of the games remains about the same. Except now there are fewer seats filled.

2) Now this means that for shortstacks to have a negative impact on the long term health of the games they need to be scaring off losing players from depositing.

So Stars' interests may not line up with yours since fewer seats filled means less rake for them. Additionally long term sustainability may not be their goal because of legislative issues.

This is patently untrue. Your second argument is incredibly potent, as to why stars might not care about the long term. But the first argument is incredibly wrong. Shortstacks will extract equity out of fish in an "unfair manner," and thats bad.

To begin this debate, we have to figure out why fish deposit:

a. degeneracy
b. false sense of winning
c. enjoyment of the game
d. attempt to get better.

Feel free to add any points, it wont matter. A) Degenerates will play no matter what. These degenerate fish are more likely to play on a site that they have an actual chance of winning stacks on. You can debate this, I'll even concede some may be too degen to move. This represents some population of poker fish, assign a percentage as you wish. They still don't like shortstacks. B)Fish do not get a false sense of winning from shortstacks. Fish who play for this reason will leave, lower amounts of 50 buyin hot streaks since they can only double up for 20bb will cause them to redeposit less and less. C)Fish who enjoy the game either dont care about shortstacking, or hate shortstackers. Either way, shortstacking doesn't improve their enjoyment of the game, discount this off as more likely to make the fish leave. D)Fish who try to get better are at this moment, and some in this thread, complaining about shortstackers. Fish who want to get better do not play to optimize preflop shoving ranges, they like picking off bluffs, etc, TV stuff.

In general, you are likely to lose some fish with a sustained shortstack supported strategy while an alternative shortstack free arena is being provided. You will also have a slowly increasing population of shortstacks who find the low effort --> reward ratio appealing and don't mind the cap on the reward. This presents a bad situation for our pyramid as the base fish will dry up. They won't disappear. But all the exogenous factors such as the bad marketing will add up to slowly decrease their numbers who redeposit to FTP instead. Think recessions, people will still have jobs. But theres also going to be a lot less people with jobs.

zrap · 02-26-2010, 02:22 AM

Stars,

Just make the damn changes already. These endless arguments between shortstackers vs everyone else are flat out boring and repetitive.

If you want a case of reference see the Full Tilt threads in the last four months. Same arguments plus a bizzilion arguments by the shortstackers about how bad the games would suffer without them and how much business FTP would lose. All the cases have been proven WRONG easily as the games at FTP are just as plentiful and way way better now. Nobody misses them one iota. There are still some that remain but they can't ruin the games anymore with a 35bb stack. It's actually enjoyable to watch them try to employ their strategy now.

TimStone · 02-26-2010, 02:33 AM

another point is that stars was prett clever to let FT do the first step...

there is def. a bunch of ratholers who moved lately to Stars...

if you do the changes, these ratholers cannot move nowhere bc they r already caught in the VIP System... Euro ratholers could switch to iPoker but they will not do this move bc iPoker is dead a long time BC of too many ratholers...

so Stars, if you do the changes ur business will not be hurt at all. The only thing which is happening is, that alot of fullstacks which moved from Stars to FT lately will move back...

THIS is btw from Everest Poker - I LIKE

______
Thank you for your inquiry.

After escalating your concerns about the minimum buy-in at cash game to
our development team manager, I have the following feedback for you:

The buy-in issue has been a recent topic of discussion. We will be
raising the minimum buy-in at all of our ring game tables in the near
future, except for micro-stakes. We are currently conducting
competitive research to determine the appropriate minimum.

Should you have any concerns or questions, please do not hesitate to
contact us. We are happy to assist you.

Kind regards,

Jerry
Customer Care Team

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOON

downgoesdown · 02-26-2010, 02:50 AM

hmmmmmmmmmmm this keeps getting better and better lol

DerekJCEX · 02-26-2010, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poker_is_Hard

Maybe if you stayed at the table after doubling up you would see the complaining in the chat box.

This is so true. I don't talk **** anymore because I'm so used to it but what I hear very frequently from casual players is "OMG you only have 1 move and that's all in!!1" and "WTF he just took my money and left"

**PokerStars Steve** · 02-26-2010, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verstehen

Thanks Steve, we all really appreciate the update.

Can you tell us who comprises the "VIP Player Panel," I've never heard of this before?

It may have been referred to differently, but you applied to be a part of it on a thread in this forum IIRC.

DerekJCEX · 02-26-2010, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dxu05

Shortstacking is indeed going to slowly wrap it's long snakelike coil around stars games. Theres no stopping it, it's simply superior in terms of the effort --> return. It's also an enormous drag on Pokerstars' marketing campaign, and while in the short run will bring in volume in the long run will choke out the site. It's especially prevalent in MSNL, and the games there are bad enough as it is. Without ratholing the games there would be drastically better, maybe even tolerable. With 35 bb min FTP wouldn't look like a great alternative. Frankly if they don't change, even long time loyal regs will either decide to shortstack after starting to have lower winrates with their edges being choked out, or they will move.

It's economics for the bigstacks. You won't see a sudden 1 day disappearance, but as the games today even without shortstacks are worse than the games in 2004, so will the games of 2011 if Stars does nothing. Frankly, supernova, optimism, and brand loyalty keep me on the site for the interim. But if things continue the opportunity cost of not moving is going to outweigh the laziness.

The people arguing even the idea that shortstacks aren't making the games less attractive are hilarious. Their argument doesn't even merit rebuttal. While Stars certainly has the perogative to choose the short term wallet over long term image, if they do nothing the only choice players who don't want to play against shortstacks have is to move.

Well done

DerekJCEX · 02-26-2010, 03:07 AM

Hi SteveD!

acethiest · 02-26-2010, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackize

If Stars were to change the games so drastically in April I think they need to do something to compensate any shortstacker on pace for SNE. I don't currently have any ideas for how to equitably do this though.

Compensation? Stars should compensate the fullstacks for how much you guys ruined the games.

It's so funny to hear shortstackers complain how unfair this is. Most of them arn't educated enough to even understand that this whole scenario happened 2 years ago and they lost... and they will lose once again....

JumanjiBoard · 02-26-2010, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackize

And I agree. And since Stars is attempting to find this out with their survey there's not much sense in arguing amongst ourselves.

Dear Fish,

Do you enjoy playing more with players of 100bb stacks that are skilled generally but stay at the table or 20bb stacks of shove poker that leave once they double up?

Pokerstars

Ye, I really wonder..

waow · 02-26-2010, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackize

It might be fairly easy to become breakeven. It's fairly hard to be a winner shortstacking. Many fullstacked regs have made the switch and been unsuccessful.

ahahahaha what

how long would it take anyone to do the math to figure out how to beat the game playing with a 5bb stack?

now how long would it take anyone to do the math for a 10bb stack? now 20bb?

if im reading what ive quoted correctly, youre saying it's harder to be a winner shortstacking than fullstacking

ahahahahahahahaha