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PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14 PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14

05-29-2012 , 12:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LazyAce
I just got an email from PS Steve with regards to some changes some sooner and some possibly later as a result of the March 2012 player meetings which I attended. I think that my Nda would still apply some I'm not going to paste the email here, but I will say that it looks like there might be some good things coming in June. Wish I could elaborate more but Nda's gonna Nda.

Obviously Steve or Lee will post something soon though.
Confirmed, I received the same email.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lol_internetz
Since you have written some well thought out things earlier in the thread, I can't help but feeling (very) cautiously optimistic. But I'm getting to the point where I am jaded enough by Pokerstars announcements that I think it'll be wiser to maintain my usual stance of 'please please don't screw things up further'
Regarding the near-future changes based on the March meetings, there shouldn't be any downside from a players perspective and are in line with the historical 'improve and/or simplify the site without harming anyone' that we've seen in past years.
PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14 Quote
05-29-2012 , 12:09 PM
IMO the switch to WC does make Pstars extra money. I haven't been invited to see the numbers but even if the numbers are what Stars claims that it losses they still aren't going to lose in the long run and here's why.

Essentially this switch took money out of regulars pockets and put that money at a reduced amount (due to VPP to FPP conversion) into recreationals pockets. (stars makes revenue)

Stars also reduced rake at many stakes so players win (stars losses money)

On the above 2 points the numbers probably show on balance of about revenue neutral for Stars.

Where they make money is that a recreational now can continue to play when that recreationals budget would have been tapped before. A recreational can only afford x amount of dollars for his losing entertainment... by having him last longer in the games (due to extra FPP's) he continues to play, and plays more hands then he would have previously.
PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14 Quote
05-29-2012 , 12:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LazyAce
I just got an email from PS Steve with regards to some changes some sooner and some possibly later as a result of the March 2012 player meetings which I attended. I think that my Nda would still apply some I'm not going to paste the email here, but I will say that it looks like there might be some good things coming in June. Wish I could elaborate more but Nda's gonna Nda.

Obviously Steve or Lee will post something soon though.
I certainly hope they do come up with something fun and exciting. I am so bored playing on Stars. None of their promotions (in a long time) have motivated me to play long hours for any sort of challenge.
PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14 Quote
05-29-2012 , 12:33 PM
Hood comparing the costs of a site in its infancy with no established player base to the largest site that has an effective stranglehold on the market is silly. The whole point was that Stars.com baseline costs are going to be a small fraction of their overall costs - meaning the vast majority of their expenses are scalar. That many sites can operate and profit with a small fraction of Star's userbase while giving much more back to players on average is evidence that the inherent baseline costs in this industry are not large.
PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14 Quote
05-29-2012 , 12:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Do it Right
Hood comparing the costs of a site in its infancy with no established player base to the largest site that has an effective stranglehold on the market is silly. The whole point was that Stars.com baseline costs are going to be a small fraction of their overall costs - meaning the vast majority of their expenses are scalar. That many sites can operate and profit with a small fraction of Star's userbase while giving much more back to players on average is evidence that the inherent baseline costs in this industry are not large.
This.
PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14 Quote
05-29-2012 , 12:56 PM
France went into effect May 2010. Up to that point French players played on dot.COM. When dot.FR went live, all French players were automatically transitioned over. The data i'm quoting is from 2011.

So, it had:

(a) a huge established player base in France already prior to it going live, and
(b) a massive advantage and head-start over the competition both in terms of market penetration and existing intrastructure, and
(c) data from 2011 wouldn't include the initial costs of entering the market (upfront license cost, initial marketing, extra software development etc) as it was already operational for over half a year before the data.

So I think there nothing silly at all in the comparison.

Last edited by Hood; 05-29-2012 at 01:17 PM.
PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14 Quote
05-29-2012 , 02:10 PM
So everybody bar the reps were right from the start that the "new commitment to FL games" was basically complete bull**** and we are in the same position we were 5 months ago.

The initial anger was being tempered with a couple of happy hours and nowadays we don't get anything.

I was probably naive to think that PokerStars were a little better than the rest. With their recent bonus policy it's more profitable for me to play at Party at this point. I honestly don't know why PokerStars piss off the part of their costumers that pay ridiculous rake with little rakeback.

It's really been a slap in the face and even though I realize that's not even a drop in the ocean my volume already drastically increased this year and I don't plan on playing anymore on Stars.

If you basically tell us to **** off you get what you wish for
PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14 Quote
05-29-2012 , 02:14 PM
Why don't you bump one of the LHE-specific threads we have in this forum and post there? I'd like to add more but i think i've cluttered this topic enough with off-topic stuff! I def think we should still be discussing this more, but the couple of times over the last few months i've tried to 'rally the troops' didn't really get anywhere, and I think the failure of any LHE discussion in previous meetings is testament to that.
PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14 Quote
05-29-2012 , 02:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hood
Why don't you bump one of the LHE-specific threads we have in this forum and post there? I'd like to add more but i think i've cluttered this topic enough with off-topic stuff! I def think we should still be discussing this more, but the couple of times over the last few months i've tried to 'rally the troops' didn't really get anywhere, and I think the failure of any LHE discussion in previous meetings is testament to that.
With all due respect why don't you stop defending Stars at every corner and start asking them why they haven't done anything for LHE like they told you personally they would. You did go to IOM on behalf of players correct?

LHE players have given up numerous good ideas on how to revitalize the game yet none have been acted on. This is Pokerstars's failure not posters from the LHE forum.
PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14 Quote
05-29-2012 , 02:36 PM
I agree. That's why I suggest we bump up the LHE-specific thread in the zoo where we might gain more attention to LHE-specific concerns.

Read my posts in this thread re. LHE. It's only 1 page back. I haven't defended them once on this issue. I posted just a few posts above where I said it sucks, I agree with the previous poster's criticism, and we should work to put the thing back in to the limelight by bumping up threads.

But sure, if you want to call that "defending them at every corner," go ahead, it's not fooling anyone. I'm going to leave this thread, because I know when I'm getting trolled once again. But you should know it's getting pretty transparent now.

I mean didn't you work for PS around the time dot.FR came in to effect? You would know that they had a big French client base prior 2010 and transitioned and established way before 2011. Yet you "+1 this" a post that says they had "no established player base" in France in 2011. It's straight up trolling. Just like both of you know that "cutting rake 20% cuts profit 20%" is just basic econ failure. Both of you guys know your stuff but you are mixing in total fallacies in to otherwise sensible posts hoping it slips under the radar basically to spread FUD. You don't need to do this.

Last edited by Hood; 05-29-2012 at 02:42 PM.
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05-29-2012 , 03:08 PM
Hood- The French saga is not really the issue. The fact that many sites who take in far less revenue and give out more rewards to players are in business, presumably still in the profit, therefore Stars could lower rake and still make money. That is the point.

As for LHE ideas... I can't think of any new ones... many have been posted in the LHE threads. I try to be fair in my judgement and Stars has had some decent promos this year... the VIP blast off, micro millions, the Online PCA (F/T plays it at the PCA) for Canadians were all good ideas. Even the Supernova Newsletter was a great addition imo. I'm hoping the June promo's that LazyAce spoke of deliver.
PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14 Quote
05-29-2012 , 03:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hood
Why don't you bump one of the LHE-specific threads we have in this forum and post there? I'd like to add more but i think i've cluttered this topic enough with off-topic stuff! I def think we should still be discussing this more, but the couple of times over the last few months i've tried to 'rally the troops' didn't really get anywhere, and I think the failure of any LHE discussion in previous meetings is testament to that.
Hood, the problem of LHE rake has been discussed for years. Do you honestly think that a lack of ideas or argument is the problem towards lower LHE rake? Are you really that naive? It took PokerStars only a couple of weeks and zero creativity when they effectively increased their SNG rake after Black Friday.
There are enough ideas on the table and the list of suitable (Fixed Limit) Promos is long enough (VIP Mega Month, Happy Hours, higher VPP multiplier) to find a short term solution.

It's quite clearly a lack of will and I don't see how rallying the troops will achieve anything. They flat out lied to you in regards to their FL commitment so how can I assume that they are being genuine with me?

I genuinely think that my best chances of creating a more favourable FL environment on PokerStars is to avoid the site completely, and not writing meaningless posts or sending reps to the IOM. At least that's a language they are certain to understand.
PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14 Quote
05-29-2012 , 07:01 PM
KidPoker: gg
rUaBot: gg
rUaBot: sorry for the sick run
KidPoker: its ok just glad its over!
KidPoker: have never in my life played 2 tables HU LH and I never will again
rUaBot: big thanks for playing here
rUaBot: oh
KidPoker: good night


:P
PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14 Quote
05-29-2012 , 08:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreySteel
KidPoker: gg
rUaBot: gg
rUaBot: sorry for the sick run
KidPoker: its ok just glad its over!
KidPoker: have never in my life played 2 tables HU LH and I never will again
rUaBot: big thanks for playing here
rUaBot: oh
KidPoker: good night


:P
Obviously this is not what Stars envisioned when they tried this promo so the fault is not really with them. And you can't blame DN for not wanting to lose his shirt every week.

Why not extend this type of promo to all LHE players with the biggest winner at the various levels get a shot playing HU with say Tzen1 or another Stars pro for $500 at the micro levels, 1-1.5k at the low levels, 2-2.5k at the mid levels and 3-4k at the high level. If it was run where the winner was the player with the highest profit at the end of the week then a promo like this would reward the regs. Also a promo like this could bring new players and former LHE regs back to the tables.

This type of promo would cost Stars about 7k a week but with the extra rake I think it would still be profitable. With a promo like this I'd def. return to LHE as I'd appreciate the challenge and would go from my current yearly pace of 100k vpps back to previous years levels which were around 500kvpps.

Obviously the payouts and even the contest rules aren't etched in stone but something like this could get people excited again and the winners would share a balance of skill and high volume.
PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14 Quote
05-29-2012 , 08:40 PM
Limit is dead. I'm not convinced it is 100% related to the rake, the game itself is frustrating and boring. Players want to win stacks, not be capped at 12 big blinds per hand.
Maybe if all the poker on tv was limit, limit would still be the main game but that simply isn't the case.
PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14 Quote
05-29-2012 , 08:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LazyAce
I just got an email from PS Steve with regards to some changes some sooner and some possibly later as a result of the March 2012 player meetings which I attended. I think that my Nda would still apply some I'm not going to paste the email here, but I will say that it looks like there might be some good things coming in June. Wish I could elaborate more but Nda's gonna Nda.

Obviously Steve or Lee will post something soon though.
I guess I can get my hopes up one more time ^_^
PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14 Quote
05-29-2012 , 08:47 PM
I mean I understand everyone not wanting a game to die. But this would be like trying to bring back stud. You aren't going to bring it back. LHE doesn't even run at the local casinos back home except sunday mornings (the 60 year old men still messing around with it)

At some point you just gotta let it go. As an ex LHE player, and soon to be ex NL player, and within a couple years an ex PLO player, that is just how things work in the poker world. Solved games die. New games take over, gets solved new game takes over rinse and repeat.

They could put the money in better areas of new up and coming games rather than trying to save a dead format. Just my .02 though. I say we bring back stud, I mean why LHE and not stud? Or why not 5card draw and not stud?

We have a booming holdem format. Bringing a game like stud or 5card back would make more sense to me.
PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14 Quote
05-30-2012 , 02:27 AM
What is the average turnaround time for re-opening a US citizen's account who has permanently moved to a different country to pursue playing online? Assume all required documents have been sent, and the player has completed a phone conversation with PS to confirm identity where everything went smoothly. There are no known complications from the player's end.

Anybody else recently re-open their previously US-based account have timetables?
PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14 Quote
05-30-2012 , 02:52 AM
Was very easy for me counting small unforeseen complication. Turnaround should be a few days to a week tops from my understanding from start to finish if all documents are proper.

since your new and cant receive pms yet. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=126

Last edited by djle2; 05-30-2012 at 02:57 AM.
PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14 Quote
05-30-2012 , 02:59 AM
May 5, I sent all required docs. PS received and set up a phone call with me the next week. I was contacted by them on my new land line. After talking with the security rep, he said that everything looks good and my "account would be opened in 24-72 hours". Well, it's been almost 3 weeks since and my account is still closed. I have emailed them several times asking for updates, and asking if there is anything else I can do to assist them, but all I get is a stock "your account has been forwarded to upper management for final review" response. They even responded w/ an incorrect account name in one of the emails and later apologized for it. Anyways, I'm going to wait it out a bit longer but it's starting to get a bit worrying, especially since I moved to a new country simply to play on PS for income, and I can't get any answers from them.
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05-30-2012 , 03:08 AM
You should really move this/ talk about this to another thread regarding this issue. I woulld send a summary of your situation to this guy http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/members/290647/

Like I said. He was very helpful for me when PS dropped the ball regarding me.
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05-30-2012 , 03:11 AM
Thanks and sorry for shi**ing up this thread temporarily.
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05-30-2012 , 03:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madjohnny
Limit is dead. I'm not convinced it is 100% related to the rake, the game itself is frustrating and boring. Players want to win stacks, not be capped at 12 big blinds per hand.
Maybe if all the poker on tv was limit, limit would still be the main game but that simply isn't the case.
this^^^^^
PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14 Quote
05-30-2012 , 07:26 AM
We're not asking NL guys to love LHE all of a sudden, the game isn't dead (the point about the Zoom table not running is moot as Zoom isn't suited for LHE... there's no reason to fast fold when you're playing so many hands per table). Games run, it's just that the rake is so high, especially at micros/small stakes that the big winner is always the site. It's natural for NL guys to say limit is "frustrating and boring" but to many of us folding all day and nut-peddling is "frustrating and boring". Each to their own and all that. We're just asking for fairness, in the current environment rake is the biggest winner at every table and that isn't healthy no matter what game you're playing. Even though I've never played the game I think PLO deserves some attention too as it faces similar problems from what I've seen on here. It's natural for NL players to want other games to die but we're not trying to steal your players or anything like that, just create a healthier environment where the site doesn't skim off the majority of the money on the table.
PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14 Quote
05-30-2012 , 08:43 AM
Hi folks -
I've started a new thread with a new date (May 30th), so let's pick up the discussion over there.

I've addressed quite a few of the issues that were recently discussed here and will continue addressing them however I can.

Regards,
Lee Jones
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