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Old 05-14-2012, 05:48 AM   #1
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PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14

Hi all -

Good to see 2+2 back on the air. Obviously, it's been a pretty buzzy couple of weeks.

Quote:
When will Pokerstars do an official annoucement about their rumored purchase of FTP ?
The whole of my answer is here. That is all that I (or any PokerStars employee) can say.

I realize that both of these are somewhat non-answers. But big enterprises just don't reveal their inner workings to the public - that's the nature of the beast. If you think about it for a moment, you'll realize that any other approach would be crazy.

Please know that as soon as we have information to share publicly we will do so. Until then, we appreciate your understanding and patience.

Quote:
Lee, there was a suggestion made at the recent meeting by Alex asking for FPP cash bonus rewards to be lowered significantly as well as the FPP cost.
We are looking at a few options to proportionally reduce the value of some VIP Reward Bonuses so that some players can convert their points to cash out more frequently. This may not affect all of the reward options and it's unlikely to increase the value per FPP of the rewards. But we definitely understand people's desire to be able to cash out more frequently.

Quote:
An easy fix for [Zoom games not starting] which would make it 10 times easier for the table to actually start , is to be able to play shorthanded no matter how many players are in the pool. So if there is 3 players waiting to start a table , those 3 should be able to play against each other and then new people will add up slowly.
This is a definitely an issue and we're looking at it. As soon as I get an idea of where it is in the development queue, I'll let you know.

Quote:
[MTT lag] really needs to be addressed by stars
Bryan is responding frequently in this thread. He has also contacted over 50 people personally to discuss the situation with them; that's in addition to his already very full plate.

I also realize that in a few cases, our support people got confused, saying that the problem was on the player's end, when in fact the player was legitimately addressing the MTT lag. If we did that to you, I apologize. Our support management has pushed the message about the lag to our worldwide support staff; we think we've eliminated the confusion.

But let's keep this in perspective: our support people receive twelve thousand emails each day. They handle virtually every one of those correctly, a fact we're very proud of. Furthermore, a huge majority of the complaints we get about connection problems are, indeed, issues on the player's end. I'm not saying that we like it when we miss the target like that; I'm saying that it's a rare (but understandable) mistake.

On the technical front, our software folks believe that they've identified and fixed the core problem. Bryan tells me that he's seen a "trickle" of complaints in the past few days. On that subject, as Bryan noted here, we have turned off dynamic pay-table updating; it will stay off until Bryan and the software team are relatively sure it won't cause a lag.

If you feel that you were materially affected by lag, please contact support@pokerstars.com and let them know the date(s), time(s), and Tournament ID(s). Any information you can provide will assist our support in addressing your claim as quickly as possible. They have special tools that can see how much you were disconnected and standards for how to refund based on that.

Finally, if you do get hit with a lag, please follow the instructions in Bryan's post for documenting it and ship it to support@pokerstars.com. Don't hesitate to reference the 2+2 thread about the lag so the support team is sure to know what you're talking about.

Quote:
Lee as a result of the meeting, I am sure the reps pushed for 6x vpp for all. Will that be implemented. If not, why so and how can we get it implemented?
We have no plans to change the VPP multipler, or really any aspect of the VIP program this year. That's not to say we couldn't or definitely won't; it's to say that, at this moment, we don't plan to. I realize that my previous answer was more open-ended; the fault for that is 100% mine, nobody else's.

Quote:
[...] I can, kind of, appreciate why the beginner freerolls and stuff use NLHE, (although I don't really agree with that either) but the people playing the quarterlies are guys who have already played thousands upon thousands of hands.

Also, I don't pretend to know what percentage of Supernovas have NLHE as their main game, but surely a fair amount of them should come from PLO, LHE, and other games.
A huge percentage (like 85-90%) of the real money hands dealt on PokerStars are NLHE. I am the first guy in line to wish that there were a greater diversity of games being played on the site, but that's not the fact of the matter. I can promise you that if we held the SuperNova Quarterly Freeroll playing any other game than NLHE, there would be a significant number of people who would be completely and totally lost. I mean as in "don't know the actual rules of the game." We would well and truly piss off a lot of people who would say that we were essentially handing most of the EV in that tournament to a very small subset of people (including Shaun Deeb). Unfortunately, this would be true.

Quote:
The new way of refreshing a tournament lobby where its very slow to update, especially towards the business end of a tournament, is tiltingly bad and a big downgrade to the player experience.
Yes, we're aware of that; it's a bug and we've got a fix in place. That fix will roll out with the new client releases which are currently planned to start the week of May 21st. We specifically didn't want to roll out a new client during SCOOP. I am very sorry for the trouble this has caused and we'll get the fix out as soon as it's safe to do so.

Best regards,
Lee Jones
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Old 05-14-2012, 06:21 AM   #2
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Re: PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14

frist!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Jones View Post
We are looking at a few options to proportionally reduce the value of some VIP Reward Bonuses so that some players can convert their points to cash out more frequently. This may not affect all of the reward options and it's unlikely to increase the value per FPP of the rewards. But we definitely understand people's desire to be able to cash out more frequently.
are you trying to say you're bringing the eff. rakeback % down?
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Old 05-14-2012, 07:09 AM   #3
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Re: PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14

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Originally Posted by JSpazz View Post
frist!!!



are you trying to say you're bringing the eff. rakeback % down?
I think he just meant lowering the cash amount for the bonuses so they can be bought more regularly, not reducing their points/$ value. (I hope)
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Old 05-14-2012, 08:44 AM   #4
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Re: PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14

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Originally Posted by Lee Jones View Post
We have no plans to change the VPP multipler, or really any aspect of the VIP program this year. That's not to say we couldn't or definitely won't; it's to say that, at this moment, we don't plan to. I realize that my previous answer was more open-ended; the fault for that is 100% mine, nobody else's.
You guys are so greedy. I play FR and get my full 6x and it still isn't enough lol. Yet I make more $1 raked than sngs, 6max, Mtts, in rake back because?

I pay $1 I get 6. They pay $1 they get 5.5. Why does anyone get more rakeback? It should be equal! lower the ****ing FR to 5.5. At least make it even. Who runs your ****ing show? They suck at it.

I know you guys have a reason, we all know the reason. It is greed. You don't want to concede. And that is fine, you guys need money and more money, and just a little bit more.

Capitalism, cannot blame it. But players PRAY for 1% roi in sngs, and 20% roi in mtts, and -1bb/100 in cash games. Something is going to happen. People aren't winning anymore. Something has to happen. Gambling will never die, so poker will never die. But Stars' bottom line might. You can only bleed the game dry for so long.

Just my thoughts. I just hope you guys fall flat soon. I hate what you guys are doing and that you are so shady in the fact that you act like you are trying to do something, when it is all smoke and mirrors.

#MrDurden 3x SNE (600k rake paid in 3 years) - not going to meetings to suck ass and try and get PSpro since 2012

Last edited by mrdurdenptp; 05-14-2012 at 09:00 AM.
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Old 05-14-2012, 08:46 AM   #5
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Re: PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14

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Originally Posted by Lee Jones View Post
A huge percentage (like 85-90%) of the real money hands dealt on PokerStars are NLHE...
Okay, yeah I can understand that. Does the percentage of Supernovas represent those numbers as well then? I would have thought it was a bit less disproportionate.

As for NLHE guys getting pissed- yeah, probably. But 'Completely lost and wouldn't know the rules of the game' I find hard to believe. I'd think people who have played hundreds of thousands of hands of NLHE could probably at least figure out how to play Limit or Omaha.

Else, maybe you could have a little tutorial ala '..and then three community cards are placed on the board- this is called the flop'. Just add the following for Limit- 'Oh, and you can only minbet'. And perhaps for Omaha- 'Oh, and you get four cards and stuff'.

Guess that still leaves out the stud/draw games though.

Last edited by lol_internetz; 05-14-2012 at 08:48 AM. Reason: Oh, and lower the rake please.
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Old 05-14-2012, 09:31 AM   #6
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Re: PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14

I've been fighting for the 6x thing for years. It's pretty ridiculous. Especially given their prior changes to the VIP system that were an attempt to make things more fair.

To be fair, the old VIP system was really out of whack with some crazy sweet spots in some place (1/2 limit...100%+ rakeback anyone?!?!) and some really bad areas such as limit 6-max as well as NL 6-max. So the current way actually IS much closer for everyone involved.

But it's really super-duper simple to make it even in this regard. And they just won't do it. Well, really it's not quite that simple because what really matters is how much rake an individual ends up PAYING in the end...and the amount that you receive back is only part of that equation. And that is still really varied across the different games. But the 6-max people who are paying a helluva lot per hand certainly deserve the 6x VPP thing. If anything, they deserve MORE than 6x...especially limit HE players at 6-max.

Without having looked at it really, I suspect heads-up omaha players get hit even worse by the rake and are deserving of even more rewards than the limit HE 6-max guys.

Stars, there is a perception here that you just aren't very interested in being equally fair to your players of various games. Might want to fix that. But I've made this argument on here and in the old "players panel" forum several times before and it seemed to me that nobody cared (or nobody who could do anything about it anyway).
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Old 05-14-2012, 10:12 AM   #7
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Re: PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14

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Originally Posted by MicroBob View Post

Stars, there is a perception here that you just aren't very interested in being equally fair to your players of various games. Might want to fix that. But I've made this argument on here and in the old "players panel" forum several times before and it seemed to me that nobody cared (or nobody who could do anything about it anyway).
You don't think the perception is warranted? Stars isn't the stars of old, where they acted in a way that had the complete trust and loyalty of players. While it is great that Lee comes here and answers questions (it is appreciated), we constantly hear Stars reps say how much they value our input and want to have a dialogue.

At the recent player rep meetings (depending which rep you ask) limit either wasn't discussed at all or it was said everything is fine. I started a thread to discuss limit poker and continue the dialogue from the previous meeting....a stars rep hasn't even come aboard to say yeah we are listening...keep on the conversation.

So no we don't think Stars is being fair to players of various games (don't even get me started on the vpp multiplier).
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Old 05-14-2012, 10:16 AM   #8
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Re: PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14

fix the plo @ micros atleast.

played 80k hands, 1600$ in rake, is a bit unreal. how is anyone suppose to beat the games if they are paying 20bb/100 in rake.
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Old 05-14-2012, 10:22 AM   #9
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Re: PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14

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Originally Posted by lunapark View Post
You don't think the perception is warranted?
Huh?
Of course it is warranted. That is why the perception is there.


The other parts of your post I don't necessarily agree with. "Dialogue" and "we are listening" I'm not even sure I care a whole lot about. You can dialogue for several years and not get anywhere with it. It's all just PR in the end.

If they want to fix this stuff and make things better for their players then just do it already. You don't need to endlessly dialogue about it and pat yourselves on the back for your awesome open-communication with your players.

I would rather have a site that gave awesome value and never talked to anyone on forums like this or had weird "player roundtables" than vice-versa.
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Old 05-14-2012, 12:45 PM   #10
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Re: PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14

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We would well and truly piss off a lot of people who would say that we were essentially handing most of the EV in that tournament to a very small subset of people (including Shaun Deeb). Unfortunately, this would be true.
The previous supernova freerolls were weekly, 1500 starting stack and normal levels. The quarterley ones are deepstack, long levels. Do you not think you are handing most of the EV to players who play deepstacked long level tourneys?.
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Old 05-14-2012, 04:44 PM   #11
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Re: PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14

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I pay $1 I get 6. They pay $1 they get 5.5. Why does anyone get more rakeback? It should be equal! lower the ****ing FR to 5.5. At least make it even. Who runs your ****ing show? They suck at it.
i think you're confused. we're not "lobby-ing" for LESS rakeback. in any game.
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Old 05-14-2012, 04:54 PM   #12
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Re: PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14

Lee, what is stopping PokerStars from changing the sit-out button at cash tables with a sitout all tables button? The advantages would be many:

- Players(who multitable) couldn't sitout when a fish sits out
- Players(who multitable) and are sitting HU on a 6m or FR table cannot sitout vs an opponent willing to play, and thus can't deny action
- Players(who multitable) and join a 6m/FR table with 1 player seated cannot sitout if the player is willing to play
- You wouldn't have 6m/FR tables with 4-5 players sitting out waiting for a weaker player to sit

I, for one, can't really see any disadvantages. It stands to reason that any recreational player sitting out (but not leaving a table) is doing so for a reasons that, if he were playing more than 1 cash game table, would force him to sit out on all the tables anyway.

Obv, if you did that you'd have to make it so if a player unchecks post big blind, or manually doesn't post, he'd get a second set of 2 btns/choices: post BB or sitout all tables.
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Old 05-14-2012, 05:33 PM   #13
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Re: PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14

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Originally Posted by Jah Onion View Post
i think you're confused. we're not "lobby-ing" for LESS rakeback. in any game.
At least it would be fair and make sense. Obv I don't want less rakeback. I was just making a point.
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Old 05-14-2012, 05:56 PM   #14
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Re: PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14

Quote:
At least it would be fair and make sense
[ ] would be fair to FR players
[x] would be "fair" to 6m/sng/mtt players
[ ] the players negatively affected by this difference in VPP accrual (6m/sng/mtt) would gain anything
[ ] makes sense

It honestly boggles my mind that people can have your train of thought. Hey, you're raping more from 6m/sng/mtt winrates than from FR winrates. Rape more from FR to make it fair.
WTF?

I know you're not some micro stakes busto retard which is why I'm going out of my way to be nice given what you're saying, but jfc man take 2 minutes to think.


FFS if Isai would be reading this **** he'd be laughing so hard.

LE:

Quote:
Obv I don't want less rakeback.
But that's exactly what you're asking for
Quote:
Why does anyone get more rakeback? lower the ****ing FR to 5.5. At least make it even.
Quote:
I was just making a point.
No, you were asking Stars, quite vehemently, to lower FR rewards, as per above quote

Last edited by Jah Onion; 05-14-2012 at 06:03 PM.
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Old 05-14-2012, 06:06 PM   #15
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Re: PokerStars Roundtable 2012-05-14

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Originally Posted by Jah Onion View Post
Lee, what is stopping PokerStars from changing the sit-out button at cash tables with a sitout all tables button? The advantages would be many:

- Players(who multitable) couldn't sitout when a fish sits out
- Players(who multitable) and are sitting HU on a 6m or FR table cannot sitout vs an opponent willing to play, and thus can't deny action
- Players(who multitable) and join a 6m/FR table with 1 player seated cannot sitout if the player is willing to play
- You wouldn't have 6m/FR tables with 4-5 players sitting out waiting for a weaker player to sit

I, for one, can't really see any disadvantages. It stands to reason that any recreational player sitting out (but not leaving a table) is doing so for a reasons that, if he were playing more than 1 cash game table, would force him to sit out on all the tables anyway.

Obv, if you did that you'd have to make it so if a player unchecks post big blind, or manually doesn't post, he'd get a second set of 2 btns/choices: post BB or sitout all tables.
+1

If there is a legitimate reason for specifically sitting out at one table that doesn't involve the kind of bumhunting that is patently bad for the game I haven't heard it yet.
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