Hey guys, sorry this has taken a few days to get out and thanks for your patience.
Similar to what Lipo did for the last meeting, I will post the agenda and time-frame of the meetings as I think this will help your understanding of how much time we had and how it was used.
WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 17
Rotunda – 3rd floor
9:15 Telecabs taxi meets players at Sefton for transport to Skandia House
9:30 Welcome and NDA signing (SteveD)
9:45 Office tour (SteveD)
10:00 Introductions (Isai, Scott, SteveD)
10:30 Purpose of Meetings: Discussion (Isai, Scott, SteveD)
11:00 Non-satellite Sit & Go discussions: Player identified topics (SteveD, Baard, Lee)
12:45 Lunch, Break and Informal discussion (Players’ private time)
1:30 Ring Game discussions: Player identified topics (SteveD, Nick, Baard, Lee)
3:30 Break
3:45 Discussion of FTP Relaunch, and Q&A (Isai, Mark, SteveD)
5:00 Players present top suggestions; Isai responds (Isai, Scott, Lee, SteveD)
6:15 Players return to Sefton hotel
7:30 Dinner at Regency (5 players, Isai, Scott, Lee, Josem, SteveD)
THURSDAY, OCTOBER 18
Rotunda – 3rd floor
8:30 Telecabs taxi meets players at Sefton for transport to Skandia House
8:45 VIP Club: Discussion and Suggestions, including 2013 changes (SteveD, Caleb, Chris, Lee)
11:45 Lunch, Break, and Informal discussion (Players’ private time)
12:30 Discussion/Review of PokerStars 7 Client (Stefan, DouglasF, Lee, SteveD)
2:30 Break
2:45 Scheduled MTT and Satellites: Discussion & Suggestions (Bryan, Lee)
5:00 Players present top suggestions; Isai responds (Isai, Scott, Lee, Bryan, SteveD)
6:15 Players return to Sefton hotel
7:30 Dinner at JAR (5 players, Scott, Lee, Bryan, Stefan, SteveD)
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 19
9:00 Telecabs taxi meets players at Sefton for transport to Skandia House
9:15 Sit & Go Promotions: Discussion & Suggestions (Morten, SteveD, Bob, Baard, Lee)
10:15 Ring Games Promotions: Discussion & Suggestions (Morten, SteveD, Bob, Nick, Baard, Lee)
11:15 Follow-up on topic of players’ choosing (TBD)
11:45 Lunch, Break, and Informal discussion (Players’ private time)
12:30 Follow-up on topic of players’ choosing (TBD)
2:30 Software: Upcoming Planned Improvements (Stefan, Lee, SteveD)
4:30 Break
4:45 Players present top suggestions; Isai responds (Isai, Scott, Stefan, SteveD, Caleb)
6:15 Players return to Sefton hotel.
Dinner was in general an extension of the meetings, but just in a more informal setting. As you can see we had a very full and busy three days.
AWice, IWEARGOGGLES and myself were joined by three other representatives, if I'm not mistaken one from PrincePoker (French Canadian Forum), one from PokerStrategy.de (German Forum) and PokerNews.NL (Dutch forum). The German player was a Mid Stakes cash game regular, but he didn't really play much on Stars, the Dutch rep was a MTT player and the French Canadian is a Small Stakes cash game regular who I would probably describe as more of a (winning) recreational player because of his family and volume.
From this point on I will speak about my own experience and thoughts from my perspective only. Again, to be clear, these are my opinions and do NOT represent those of any of the other representatives or PokerStars.
I went into the meetings having my own expectation of how they would be run, based on primarily the schedule, a bit about what Steve had told us and also talking to AWice and Lipo prior to the meetings. I had a list of issues which I wanted to bring up, these primarily comprised the most common issues currently brought up by the general community, and also a few specific issues some regulars of various game types PMed me or talked to me on Skype. Thanks again to Lipo, Alex and the others who spoke to me via PM or Skype, the input was both appreciated and considered.
However, when the meeting started, I quickly figured out that it was pretty obvious that Stars were open to the general idea of a lot of miscellaneous suggestions, for example modifying the current blind structure of some SNGs or adding a CAP on the NLHE/PLO portions of Mixed Rotation games but these needed a very big amount of player support. If large support is/was shown on twoplustwo, this is a great start but obviously twoplustwo is not the entire player base and other players (including recreational players but also regulars who don't frequent twoplustwo) would be considered too, for example the regulars who play a game with proposed changes would be surveyed.
The next few paragraphs will explain a bit about why changes don't always happen so quickly, and I apologise in advance for those who don't care about this but I think it is really important to understand. I am not doing Steve's job for him, this is my genuine opinion and I have had zero encouragement or influence from Stars to write this.
To a large degree it is common sense, but I became much more aware that as a company, Stars needs to very thoroughly and carefully consider any and all changes made. I think we as players should be grateful that Stars is as careful with such changes as they are, and we should realise that every possible change to be made has potential drawbacks (disadvantages). Some of them are obvious, and the considerations are "easier" in this case, but many of them are not so obvious and only become apparent when detailed considerations and analysis are made, or worse when changes are made then they find out too late.
Humans don't like change, and it is perfectly understandable that the vast majority of the community don't receive most changes made very positively. It makes sense that in the best interests of the site and also the players, that Stars prefers making fewer, but more effective changes, rather than many changes which only very temporarily fix problems or create even more.
I can promise you that Stars listens a great deal to player feedback and suggestions. The staff frequent this forum (especially the suggestions/feedback threads) and are very well aware of all of the issues raised amongst players of every game type. The e-mails to support are also read and considered. For changes such as proposed blind structure (actual X/Y SB/BB/Ante, or levels/minutes), the best thing to do is to show your support. If it is clear that there is a great deal of support for a change, there is a very good chance it will be seriously considered or possibly even implemented. Remember that a good idea supported by a few members is unlikely to result in too much further action as it is perceived that all those who aren't showing their support would be opposed to the change. I brought up the clarification of "official presence" is key in receiving feedback, as it is my opinion that if someone from PokerStars literally says "we can confirm we are reading this thread and will consider all feedback" then it is much more likely players will "bother" responding.
Any changes that are likely to be popular amongst players can be pushed through means of poll or petition style approach. Again, just remember that twoplustwo is not the only player base and all potential drawbacks must be considered before change is implemented. This includes the general happiness and enjoyment of any player/s of the respective game, but also things such as liquidity of the game long-term, possible impact on other game/s etc.
The fact is change takes time, because of all the considerations that need to be fully analysed, but also because there are limited resources and as a result priorities need to be decided. I can't reveal the actual items on the lists, but we were shown multiple lists with a large list of proposed changes which are likely to happen. There was a ranking of priority on them, and I generally agreed with these although we as a group did push for a few of these to be reordered (similar to how in the past other players made it clear that the community considered the barring of PTR to be a high priority). I agree completely with Luke that is is disappointing that so many changes which would be so well received may take a long time to be seen due to the list of other things which must be completed first.
After realising that bringing up a list of suggestions was neither an effective or efficient use of time, I agreed that raising more awareness of how players could influence change would be a better idea (start a petition, tell your friends or other regs to voice their agreement, Stars WILL read it) we began discussions about basically all the aspects of the site, as you can see in the schedule. It was agreed that the largest issue at the current time was the short-stacking(/rat-holing) situation at NLHE ring games, particularly at full-ring. For those of you who don't know, there is a 700+ post thread in SSFR about it and you can read there for more information.
In addition, I personally felt that the ridiculous level of bumhunting (including auto-seat scripts, mass table camping etc) is unacceptable and definitely needed priority and to be addressed. I felt the fact that this had been brought up so much recently and in the past, and many complaints which hadn't been addressed meant players deserved an answer from Stars. Obviously the same can be said for some other issues but I think this was also important in particular as it shows a clear decline in the general quality of the games and it is a disgusting direction they are headed if this rampant bumhunting continues and grows.
Fwiw, to be clear, I am primarily a cash game player, but play almost exclusively zoom, and fixing these issues have zero direct/immediate benefit for me personally. I think improving the overall state of the games is good for everyone and will indirectly benefit us all, including me, but I just wanted to be clear that I wasn't purposely pushing/prioritizing the games I played personally or anything like that. I have regularly played SNGs and MTTs RECENTLY and just overall felt these two issues best represented the overall communities interests and concerns. I do realise that smaller niche games have less player pool, and this could mean more important issues may not be as prioritized based on sheer volume of support.
In my opinon, the player reps generally agreed that the happiness and enjoyment of recreational players is extremely important for the long term sustainability of the ecosystem in online poker, and this is extremely underrated by many regulars. I know it is very hard to consider the cheesy concept of taking a little less today for a better tomorrow, but I do think this is key. Unlike in the past, it doesn't just appear that an endless supply of customers are going to continue joining and playing.
You have to remember also that if a particular player for some reason stops playing (doesn't enjoy it enough, is pissed off about any change/s or specific things such as regulars hunting them so much or taking too long to act etc etc) they might just not come back. This is why promotions that are aimed more towards recreational players are better in the long term. For example, regulars obviously gain some EV from Milestone hands, or B000000M! (I do realise this isn't really inclusive of SNGs or MTTs, and that was part of the discussion don't worry) but they make recreational players happier and more likely to play as well, which is great as it makes the games temporarily "softer" (obviously my opinion as a player, not a statement of Stars) as well as in the long run as it keeps recreational players excited about playing online poker on Stars. Promotions or changes that would almost solely target regulars, whilst great for us, don't really do much to improve the state of the games. Battle of the Planets for example is heavily reg centered, favours regs heavily (element of change is a lot lower than say Milestones) and more importantly has little impact of recreational players. My personal opinion and experience (heard a couple discussions/questions on the tables from recreational players, and also in real life) is that most recreational players don't even know it exists. It is confirmed under re-evaluation as this promotion does little in the way of benefiting the games (in my opinion). I am obviously against it being completely taken away, but would be for either a restructure or redesign such that it actually generates more interest and play in SNGs, or a new promotion which similarly generates more interest and play in SNGs, which is what a promotion is supposed to do in the first place. I am unsure what the decision will be, but am confident that the same will be given to the players.
Stars has a big (we actually weren't given a number and I wouldn't be able to share that anyway, but this is nevertheless an extremely obvious assumption we can make) budget, but it is still a budget. Stars is a for profit company, obvious, so there is no point of making the obvious statement they care about the $ as if they are trying to hide that. But, as per the definition a budget is a budget and changes generally work around a budget. Take a little, give a little or give a little, take a little and so on. As with all business, scarcity is very real so choice has to be made, and yes that does mean opportunity cost is unavoidable.
The majority of my opinion of the shortstacking situation can be found here. Apologies for the length of this post, I did try keep it controlled but do feel most of it was important and necessary.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...5&postcount=86
I also highly recommend reading
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/96...tacks-1253293/ if this is a topic that is of importance to you.
As you guys can probably see from the thread I made the post in, there was a somewhat disagreement of our roles (as player reps), which for me personally at times for me was a barrier (took up time that shouldn't have been).
We talked about the bumhunting situation for a while during ring game discussion also and I made clear that people who were repeatedly reported should be dealt with (warned, and if appropriate banned or otherwise penalized). I think it is very likely that in the future we will hopefully see stricter enforcing of policies already put in place to discourage such behaviour, and based on my impressions at the meeting would be very disappointed if this weren't the case as I spent a great deal of energy fighting for this. At the end of Wednesday and Friday we had time to talk face to face to Isai about the most important issues we wanted change for and this was where I focused most of my attention. Obviously I gave full inputs, ideas and suggestions for every other segment of the meetings too.
We talked a lot about the SNG offerings, promotions to get people to play them, MTT offerings/schedule and promotions too and I am pretty confident positive changes will be made in the future especially regarding SNG promotions, MTT schedule and hopefully the Step system as a whole.
PLO (including the shortstacking situation there as well, and a bit about rake) was discussed too but in all honesty I think time was a limitation as well as more importantly/relevantly lack of expertise. Especially from my part, I do admit that. Luke had recently talked to some regulars and Alex had played some hands in the past, but I still feel the amount of contribution that can be given is just not close to an actual player who regularly plays in these games. The understanding of issues is just not the same at all, and this is similar to how I felt the discussion by other reps about the short-stacking/rat-holing/bumhunting etc situation wasn't as effective as it would have been by other regs. Don't get me wrong btw, I'm not at all saying they didn't do a good job in the discussions or misunderstood the situation necessarily.
We also talked about the new PokerStars 7 software, and also in general the software and some features which were in our opinions urgent/priority. We encouraged the idea of making the new changes more clear to everyone who uses PokerStars, who doesn't read the improvement update everyday as there are some pretty useful features we (the reps who play PokerStars daily) didn't even know about. A changelog within the software is an example of a suggestion we made. Some long (in our opinion) overdue changes were discussed and pushed for such as an "I'm ready" button or an automated dealing system.
In general I think Stars is quite high on "morals" and is against policies which encourage acts of rampant bumhunting, going south/rat-holing. One problem is the fact that as a company it is a very difficult position for Stars to actually officially draw the line between bumhunting and table-selecting, as table-selecting is a very encouraged skill of poker, and extreme bumhunting is considered (by the community) as unacceptable. I can't give details of what changes exactly will be made and when (I don't know in some cases) but I am very confident that positive changes will be made in the (hopefully) near future.
I have missed some discussions (hard not to when this post was so long and has taken well over an hour just to write) so apologies. We talked a lot about the idea of rewarding play in ways other than financial (such as VIP club) as many recreational players who are not winners in the game may be discouraged from playing in the current state, but would play a lot more if they were rewarded by "something they can't cash out" such as badges, a more detailed in the other reps reports. I think this is a great idea especially since the "cost" to Stars is mostly fixed rather than a % of profits such as rakeback, and would definitely encourage play from both recreational players and regs. Surely a lot of you have had experience with games like NeoPets, Mafia Wars, FarmVille and all that crap, the psychology and mindset of playing a game with achievements can be very powerful! I personally hope we can see some positive changes in that area, although it may take sometime (considering all the badge/s to start out offering, graphic and design etc).
Finally I would like to again state that Star truly do care about the games, the feedback and opinions of all the players (including twoplustwo). Most of you guys would be amazed at just how much they know about the games, I play cash games, talked to several regs, read a 600+ post thread about the shortstacking situation and yet Stars still had solutions and ideas which I didn't think or hear of. They know all the common issues brought up, suggestions raised and are considering them all. It is our job as a community of players to push for the issues and suggestions we think are most important though, as they will hopefully influence not only what they are interested in changing, but also the priority. I (personally) trust the company and it's senior staff that they do care about poker. These guys love poker, many of them were players (ranging from enthusiasts to pro players) before joining the company and want the best for the game as well as the players.
This post may seem a bit "fanboy"ish but I have always throughout the forum been pretty clearly "pro Stars" prior to the meeting. Most importantly I want to make it extremely clear that I fought hard and pushed hard for what I thought was necessary. I like Stars but that doesn't mean I have any problem telling them where I think there is a problem, or making it clear that they are not doing something right etc. I just saw both sides of the fence and think this was extremely beneficial and important in my overall effectiveness in bringing across messages, as I often said "I understand that _____, but" and this is much more convincing than "RAKE TOO HIGH"..
Thank you for your support, and I hope I served you all well as a player representative. Feel free to ask any questions and I will try my best to answer them.
*Fwiw Stars did not ask me to change anything for NDA purposes in this entire post.
