With reference to the previous meetings between Twoplustwo users and PokerStars, PokerStars Steve has informed me that PS would like to invite another three player/user representatives to the Isle of Man in April 2013 to Meetings with Management and key staff to discuss various matters; where confidential data and information may be revealed to them, (under Non-disclosure Agreements), that is not appropriate for public display.

The Meetings have been set for April 24th, 25th and 26th.

One oddity this time. Selection of two of the three players will be as normal, and any user may be considered. The third user representative will be selected particularly from the poker player volunteers who reside in NJ. (For complete clarity, PS is looking for a current NJ resident; not someone who has relocated or has "roots" there.) Please make it clear if you are volunteering to be considered to fill this role.

The goal of the meetings is for both sides to gain greater knowledge and understanding and for the site to improve as a result. Senior Managers will be present at all Meetings.

As before, I'll open a "CV thread" for volunteers and those proposed by others to give their credentials and aspirations, in due course. Then, probably, two voting threads.

Please treat this as the general discussion thread towards this end. You may either volunteer to be considered or you may recommend a fellow user that you feel would be a good representative. If someone is recommended, they should confirm their willingness to attend the Meetings.

Thank you.

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The thread for the volunteer and nominated users, only, to present their "CV", is here.

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Time-specific voting thread for the two TPT reps is now open.

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Time-specific voting thread for the NJ rep is now open.

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Previous thread, (October 2012 Meetings), for easy reference.

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Edit/MH: See *

Edit: Please note that our representatives at the April 2013 Meeting will be:

chadders0 [withdrawn]
Gags30
Mexican_Natis
Shane Stewart

A big thank you from all of us to the other volunteers and nominees.

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Edit: Report by Pokerstars Steve.

Trip Report by Shane Stewart.

Trip Report by Gags30

Trip Report by Mexican_Natis

The NJ rep is a very good idea, and the selection process should be released to the state media in an escalating series.

My 5k Post and I feel it def. should be used to say that all reps should agree not to take any sponsorship from Stars for at least 1 year if they are selected. I'd take an axe grinder over a shoe shiner any day of the week.

Did anything get accomplished from the last meeting?

I'm under the impression that the VIP changes were something different and essentially nothing was accomplished from last meeing or two. So is this meeting nothing more than a chance for reps to once say the rake is too high in several games/stake and the short stacking is a problem? Only to have Pokerstars do nothing? Can someone post a list of what was accomplished from last meeting?

+1 on both of these accounts, which I think actually go together.

Anybody who's going should actually be going with the goal of furthering player interests and not their own. That said I don't really see why anybody would even bother at this point. It's not like Stars doesn't know what players want - there's tens of thousands of posts on the topic and at least one of their reps has read the vast majority of them. They just don't really seem to care. The reps will go, promises will be made/implied, nothing will happen, and we'll have more meetings in 3 months.

Here is the forest.

Here are the trees.

PokerStars actually cares enough to fly people there and listen to them. How common is that?

They do not promise to grant anyone's wishes.

Here's an industry where a medium-volume regular pays $4000+ per month and some are paying tens of thousands per month. How common is that? I'd expect a whole hell of a lot more than the occasional catered lip service for a handful of customers every 3 months when paying that much in literally any other industry.

And on the topic of lip service I'd vastly prefer a company that ignored their customers and made it clear they were doing so than one who put on a facade of customer care with these meetings which have provided absolutely nothing. It makes a mockery of companies that actually do care. They're not doing these meetings because they care at all what the reps are saying; they're doing it to try to buy (and very cheaply at that) a better public image - the same image they've been so happy to completely throw to the gutter unsuccessfully chasing another $0.01 these past couple of years.

can someone explain the nj thing to non-americans? am i wrong in assuming nj is new jersey?

You're correct. NJ is looking likely to possibly be offering online poker in the near future. Stars decided to buy a casino there in hopes of getting in on it and there's a non-zero chance they will be able to operate in NJ.

Pretty much tis.

They just should stop those meetings...

Not that i care and its prolly good for me bc i dont play heads up but when they open a thread here and ask about feedback 50bb hu vs. 20bb cap and 200 people reply that they should leave it like it is and they still switch to 20bb cap hu a week later it becomes very obvious that they don't give a **** at all...

They should just push their agenda, i dont even blame them but acting as if they care wat regulars think while they dont give a **** is just a massive joke

Until they are ready to do ANYTHING that might hurt their bottom line for the benefit of the poker community there's no point discussing things with them. Their rake has made low stakes cash games unbeatable for all but the very luckiest, particularly in Omaha. How is anyone ever supposed to move up?

Id like to see an argument from Stars as to what these meetings have accomplished in terms of concrete, absolute developments/improvements without wishy washy arguments like 'improving communication.'

I think the answer is nothing, and on that basis Id rather we just didnt bother with the charade.

Regulars are not their number one priority and haven't been for years, especially given their size of operations ...

Then again, compared to all other big sites - who of them cares about grinders? You will only find "PokerStars" as answer.

If the meetings were held primarily for 'PR' purposes, quite frankly they probably would have been cancelled by now as the overall tone of related threads here is not very positive. We get sufficient value from the feedback and input received from the players that we want to continue on with the meetings.

If you are wondering whether it is worth players' time to attend, perhaps this is a question that would be best asked of the players who have attended past meetings?

You quoted me but I didnt mention anything about PR at all so you either missed my point or worse.

'Feedback and input' was recently solicited in a ~900 post thread on ratholers in which you made 3 posts. Does 897:3 sound like a discussion between mutually respectful parties? Lee Jones starts roundtable threads and then goes AWOL. I didnt even know about the HU thing that TimStone posted about above but it doesnt surprise me.

In any event, your response is about the value that Stars sees in these, which I dont doubt.. What do us, twoplustwo users and the player pool, get out of these things?

Anyway, I dont really want to participate in this thread. Last time I saw the manifestos and the ridiculous campaigning as if it was some sort of political election which I found so nauseating I didnt bother reading the 'reports' afterwards.

i totally get that and understand why and as being said i dont blame them, they should just stop pretending that they care wat any reg on 2+2 thinks if in teh end they just do what they think is right anyways -> HU 20-50BB vs 20BB cap

Do you mean this thread?

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...-more-1284806/

While I only posted in there 9 times, some of those posts were quite long. I probably have posted the highest quantity of words out of anyone in that thread.


I think that past player representatives are the best people to answer that question.

Assuming many others do wish to take this latest opportunity to discuss current and future policies directly with the Managers and policy-makers of the largest internet poker site on Earth, with the chance that they may be able to improve those policies from the perspective of paying customers, here are the links to the Reports by our last three representatives:

By the way, at this stage, the agenda for the April Meetings has not yet been set. If volunteers and others wish to suggest items for inclusion, nothing has been ruled off limits to date.

Finally, I'd appreciate it if this thread is used positively. Whatever your feelings are about past Meetings, everyone should strive to make future Meetings, (while PS still offers them to us on their tab), constructive and useful for the players. It is absolutely pointless and even silly to come into this thread and say, "No - let's not talk to the PS Managers face to face; that will show them they can't ignore us!"

Thank you.

Get all of the "what's the point?" trolling out of your system if need be. It is a freeroll for people to go over and discuss issues with Steve & co, one the community should take advantage of.

I think someone from the PLO community should be sent. When I went, I talked about increasing the min-buyin for PLO (and I guess it happened?) but we did not talk about rake, the changes to HU cap (they did not mention this to us so I assume it is a recent idea), or generally treating PLO as a different game. That person should be willing and able to ask for data before going to the IoM. If you don't do it before you go, chances are you won't get to see it.

The other person who should be sent should be well-rounded and knowledgeable with respect to current events and trends in the poker industry. The meetings aren't exactly set up where Stars says "what would you like to see changed?" It is more like "here is what we are doing, what do you think of our plan?" I just think the community needs to be careful in choosing someone objective. Don't pick someone who wants to go and ask for more $ for SNEs or some "middle SNE". It doesn't make sense.

I'm not sure what the deal is with sending someone from NJ. I imagine it isn't as simple as "do you want to see pre-paid Pokerstars cards in your local convenience store?" or "what is the poker culture like in New Jersey?" Who knows.

GL HF DD

PS Oh, I think the polling choices should be limited to representatives and not "none of the above".

As somebody has already stated it's becoming increasingly clear these meetings aren't to benefit the players, but to benefit Stars. Getting to pick apart their demographic for 3 days, practically for free, is certainly hugely beneficial for them in trying to figure out exactly what they can get away with. It's basically an uncompensated focus group with a side goal of trying to improve their public image. In any case this is only a 'freeroll' if you assign absolutely 0 value to your time. To say nothing of the annoyances involved in international travel or of the fact that you're providing valuable information to a company completely free of charge aside from transport + catering.

Are you really disagreeing that these meetings are hugely beneficial for Stars? This is absolutely analogous to a focus group - companies pay large amounts of $$$ sourcing/compensating these and the participants tend to be vastly less 'focused' than the ones Stars is getting. Even your post makes it sound like they're running it as a focus group. Quoting you: The meetings aren't exactly set up where Stars says "what would you like to see changed?" It is more like "here is what we are doing, what do you think of our plan?" The fact they want somebody from NJ, who obviously will have literally 0 knowledge of the current state of the games on Stars and likely in online poker in general further emphasizes that these are little more than focus groups spun as 'player meetings'.

Ironically even the results of these meetings reek of some of the common criticisms aimed at focus groups:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_desirability_bias

These have been going on for how long now? And players have gotten effectively 0 tangible value out of them. Stars has certainly gotten enormous commercial value from them, to say nothing of the public relations spin of flying people out to chat with the executives. You can disagree with players getting nothing out of these meetings - though if they are - why not list the exact tangible benefits we've gained as opposed to intangibles like, as mentioned, 'improving communication'? On the other hand, there's 0 question that Stars is getting a ton from these meetings; their very existence is proof of that if nothing else. Stars is being run ridiculously greedy as of late. They've become the home of the $10 reload bonus and spontaneously cancelling guarantees on holidays because oh no there might actually be an overlay for once! There is basically 0 chance they'd continue to run these meetings, which certainly amount to 6 figure expenses on a yearly basis, if they were not getting serious value from them.

States of PLO definitively has to be talked about.

The rake at lower stakes is just unsustainable for the whole PLO ecosystem. When Pokerstars takes about 100bb/100 hands out of the game it's hard to imagine anybody can be a big winner in these type of games. Sure enough you have some people emerging but not at a rate that is heathly, by that I mean that std/deviation is so high that you will have people going up from time to time even if they are losing players, but that's about to be the only players in general. The "luckiest ones".

The 20bb cap in PLO is also a mistake, it's effectively turning a poker game into a "casino" game and we have to know why they are doing this if not to put more $ into theirs pockets. Putting in over and over 20bb each with equities running so close together cannot be a good proposition for the health of these games.

PLO also has to be considered different than NL just like LHE is. You cannot put the 2 up together. There is probably over twice as many flop seen in PLO over what is seens in NL and more often than not these flop are seeing a turn and a river too, just like LHE and unlike NLHE. PLO is a 3 street game.


We need to have someone finally with good PLO basis because this game is quite popular and not enough heard about. It's our turn to get some kind of fix because it's too late.

hmm... I don't think there should be any not appropiate data and that they should have complete tranparency with their buisininees model and the way they operate.

I'm new to this site and it was my hope that i'd be able to obtain useful/interesting information here. That being said, please look at the title of this thread and please provide me with the following information: Who, What, Where, When & How? I've read nowhere on anybodys posts as to how to obtain information on this proposed meeting. Where did you learn of this meeting? Though the thread could be asking for input on a proposed meeting, if they think there's a certain amount of interest in it? I'm clueless.

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Edit/MH: For a complete understanding, follow the links back in linked threads, starting at the OP of this thread.

I was looking forward to volunteering for this meeting, but I have a family obligation in late April that prevents me from attending.

We are all at a crossroads for internet poker. We might be able to influence things in the right direction.

I don't forget that PokerStars paid us, under some difficult circumstances.

You sir are a good person, I can't believe people are bitching at stars.

I'm still amazed they even offered to fly out people and have these meetings, no other poker site or real life company will even think of doing that.

Also stars paid what, over half a billion dollars to save full tilt and pay your asses back and yet you people still whine.

As a sng player I know about no answers or slow answers from stars so yes I do understand the frustration but some of the people on here and posts are ridiculous.