Petition - PokerStars: Lower the price of PLO Zoom
08-06-2014
, 05:46 AM
2+2 member 1:1 has been kind enough to put work in to figure out the state of games between PLO Zoom and regular tables, here’s his work:
Rake analysis between PLO & NLHE incl. Zoom
Please see at the bottom of this post for screenshots of all the tables, notice that they are AFTER rewards.
Cliffs:
Zoom is a fancy “fast-fold” poker game which creates a situation where players are having a hard time making money even after rewards. Only winner is Pokerstars, money is not moving up the PLO/NLHE ladders, as some of it should. It’s no surprise that Zoom is often referred to as a raketrap by 2p2 members.
Even the Pokerstars Isle of Man meeting representatives have hinted, but not confirmed or denied, that the PLO Zoom winrates are lower compared to regular tables, so PokerStars certainly knows this fact.
My conclusion is that the price of Zoom should be made lower by either:
-Reducing Zoom rake
-Increasing VPP / hand (or similar change that increases rewards) at Zoom tables
Please sign if you agree.
Screenshots/quotes: (modified for PLO only)
Rake analysis between PLO & NLHE incl. Zoom
Please see at the bottom of this post for screenshots of all the tables, notice that they are AFTER rewards.
Cliffs:
Zoom is a fancy “fast-fold” poker game which creates a situation where players are having a hard time making money even after rewards. Only winner is Pokerstars, money is not moving up the PLO/NLHE ladders, as some of it should. It’s no surprise that Zoom is often referred to as a raketrap by 2p2 members.
Even the Pokerstars Isle of Man meeting representatives have hinted, but not confirmed or denied, that the PLO Zoom winrates are lower compared to regular tables, so PokerStars certainly knows this fact.
-Reducing Zoom rake
-Increasing VPP / hand (or similar change that increases rewards) at Zoom tables
Please sign if you agree.
Screenshots/quotes: (modified for PLO only)
Quote:
I am posting this here since the "no money plo, everyone is raked" thread was posted on HSPLO as well.
Here are the winrates for the top 100 volume players between PLO25-200
The hands are mainly from this year and from late 2013 and usually taken from 10M hand samples.
All winrates are post rakeback & all-in ev adjusted.
I have used various VIP tiers as follows:
BR-GO = Bronze to Gold (~19%)
BR-PL = Bronze to Platinum (~24%)
BR-SN = Bronze to Supernova (~27%)
PL-SN = Platinum to Supernova (~28%)
SN-300k = Supernova to Supernova 300k VPPS (~43%)
SN-500k = Supernova to Supernova 500k VPPS (~45%)
SNE = Supernova to Supernova Elite (~55%)
Keep in mind that this isn't exactly an in-depth analysis on rake rather than one
for strong regular players.
It's also debatable how strong the groups of the top 100 volume grinders are.
I think if you are a regular yourself you likely know most or all of the top 100 grinders
and you will be able to draw your own picture.
PLO25:
PLO25 Zoom:
PLO50:
PLO50 Zoom:
PLO100:
PLO100 Zoom:
PLO200:
PLO200 Zoom:
Results in text form & hourlies:
PLO25: 2.57 / 3.15 / 3.58
PLO25 Zoom:-0.35 / 0.11 / 0.45
PLO50: 3.76 / 4.16 / 6.18
PLO50 Zoom:-0.60 /-0.25 / 1.50
PLO100: 3.77 / 5.42 / 6.44
PLO100 Zoom: 0.87 / 2.38 / 3.32
PLO200: 2.40 / 3.61 / 4.37
PLO200 Zoom: 0.79 / 1.94 / 2.65
Hourlies 12 tabling or 4x Zoom:
PL 12x70 or 4x210 = 840 hands/h
PLO25: $5.40 / $6.62 / $7.52
PLO25 Zoom:-$0.74 / $0.23 / $0.95
PLO50: $15.79 / $17.47 / $25.96
PLO50 Zoom: -$2.52 / -$1.05 / $6.30
PLO100: $31.67 / $45.53 / $54.10
PLO100 Zoom: $7.31 / $19.99 / $27.89
PLO200: $40.32 / $60.65 / $73.42
PLO200 Zoom: $13.27 / $32.60 / $44.52
It's important to note that no FPPS are used until the highest VIP tier has been reached in each scenario for the maximum value.
In real scenarios this might not be possible for many players unless they have a huge roll or run pretty hot.
Also the last VIP tiers are very hard to achieve even for high volume regs.
I'm not sure how accurate the hands per hour for Zoom are, I think it varies a lot depending on how quick you fast fold but I think it's an ok ballpark to go by Stars' rule as they count 1 Zoom table as 3 normal ones.
Mods please feel free to edit mistakes if I should have made any or if
you want to format the post in a better way.
Here are the winrates for the top 100 volume players between PLO25-200
The hands are mainly from this year and from late 2013 and usually taken from 10M hand samples.
All winrates are post rakeback & all-in ev adjusted.
I have used various VIP tiers as follows:
BR-GO = Bronze to Gold (~19%)
BR-PL = Bronze to Platinum (~24%)
BR-SN = Bronze to Supernova (~27%)
PL-SN = Platinum to Supernova (~28%)
SN-300k = Supernova to Supernova 300k VPPS (~43%)
SN-500k = Supernova to Supernova 500k VPPS (~45%)
SNE = Supernova to Supernova Elite (~55%)
Keep in mind that this isn't exactly an in-depth analysis on rake rather than one
for strong regular players.
It's also debatable how strong the groups of the top 100 volume grinders are.
I think if you are a regular yourself you likely know most or all of the top 100 grinders
and you will be able to draw your own picture.
PLO25:
PLO25 Zoom:
PLO50:
PLO50 Zoom:
PLO100:
PLO100 Zoom:
PLO200:
PLO200 Zoom:
Results in text form & hourlies:
PLO25: 2.57 / 3.15 / 3.58
PLO25 Zoom:-0.35 / 0.11 / 0.45
PLO50: 3.76 / 4.16 / 6.18
PLO50 Zoom:-0.60 /-0.25 / 1.50
PLO100: 3.77 / 5.42 / 6.44
PLO100 Zoom: 0.87 / 2.38 / 3.32
PLO200: 2.40 / 3.61 / 4.37
PLO200 Zoom: 0.79 / 1.94 / 2.65
Hourlies 12 tabling or 4x Zoom:
PL 12x70 or 4x210 = 840 hands/h
PLO25: $5.40 / $6.62 / $7.52
PLO25 Zoom:-$0.74 / $0.23 / $0.95
PLO50: $15.79 / $17.47 / $25.96
PLO50 Zoom: -$2.52 / -$1.05 / $6.30
PLO100: $31.67 / $45.53 / $54.10
PLO100 Zoom: $7.31 / $19.99 / $27.89
PLO200: $40.32 / $60.65 / $73.42
PLO200 Zoom: $13.27 / $32.60 / $44.52
It's important to note that no FPPS are used until the highest VIP tier has been reached in each scenario for the maximum value.
In real scenarios this might not be possible for many players unless they have a huge roll or run pretty hot.
Also the last VIP tiers are very hard to achieve even for high volume regs.
I'm not sure how accurate the hands per hour for Zoom are, I think it varies a lot depending on how quick you fast fold but I think it's an ok ballpark to go by Stars' rule as they count 1 Zoom table as 3 normal ones.
Mods please feel free to edit mistakes if I should have made any or if
you want to format the post in a better way.
so I'll post
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