Quote:
Originally Posted by chali2na99
wow. trying to reserve judgement, but this doesnt look good.
for the record, are furbean and fua being accused of just softplay or some sort of collusion also? while neither should be allowed i do think there is a difference.
also i have about 20k hands with each this year and probably 200k+ last, but didnt get any refund.
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Softplay. But it's absolutely ridiculous. Of the 729 hands I have this year where both of them put money in the pot (99% of which are blinds) they only went to showdown one time. It was in a hand with 3 limpers and it checked to the river.
I have only one hand out of approximately 70 where they are blind vs. blind and it folds around to them where fua raised furbean. fua must have had AA that hand. Or maybe it was a misclick from playing 20 tables and fua didn't notice furbean was the BB.
Note: The following hands are distilled from ALL the hands I have of the 2 of them playing together.
I have 5 hands where one 3 bet the other preflop. Not one time did the original raiser call the flop bet to see the turn. Who does this? I mean wouldn't they eventually both have a hand that has showdown value, especially since they both run between 12.5% and 13.5% VPIP.
I have a few hands where one raised, there was a cold caller and the other 3-bet preflop. The original raiser folded on the flop. Only one of the hands went to showdown and the 3 bettor had AA.
I have one hand where furbean raised, was reraised by another player, and fua cold called the 3 bet. fua won the pot with a set of queens. Anyone who plays with fua knows that he/she would insta cap that with QQ. All I can think is that fua didn't want to make furbean fold to 2 bets cold preflop on that hand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chali2na99
i would imagine any type of teamplay collusion would be hard to execute while both are 24 tabling.
so if its just softplay, when does that become a bannable offense? say they are just folding when its blind v blind? or they always fold their bb to the others raise when it will be hu? does this require banning or would a warning suffice?
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chali, I believe it is bannable considering how many hands these 2 guys put in. Think about it. Furbean has probably taken a couple hundred K off the site the last 2 years. fua9999 can't be far behind that. I'm not sure when it started because I only have data for hands played so far this year.
Because of this softplay, these guys have some very atypical stats that skew the data for their opponents. It appears that they play only 12.5-13.5 percent of hands. The truth is, because they play back at each other so infrequently,
it is almost like playing against one player who has the choice of the best of 2 hands.
Their fold to blind steal percent is also very misleading due to the fact that they never defend against each other. They appear to fold their blinds to steal attempts 51-61% of the time, which may make an unwary opponent such as myself think that they are nits and won't protect if I raise light. This then leads to me scratching my head and wondering "how come furbean 3 bets me 70% of the time when I raise his BB from the button but folds to everybody else. Am I that unlucky?"
Another stat that stands out if you aren't afraid to do a little math is average dollars won/lost per pot that they were in against each other. Using info from the vs. player tab in pokertracker I found that, and I will use players who have posted in this thread as examples without telling you exactly whose stats are whose, they win/lose far less per pot played than they do vs. other players at these stakes. I totalled the dollars won and the dollars lost and divided by the total number of hands won or lost between the 2 opponents to find an average dollars played per pot. I used both 3/6 and 5/10 combined.
This is me vs. some common opponents not named furbean or fua9999
Player A-3185 hands, $7.89 in action per player per hand
Player B-2326, $7.94
Player C-2259, $6.59
Player D-1268, $6.38
Player E-1193, $7.52
Player F-715, $6.50
vs. Furbean-2769, $6.76
vs. Fua9999-2554, $6.33
This is Furbean vs. the same players
Player A-611, $6.47
Player B-241, $6.14
Player C-381, $5.35
Player D-277, $4.34
Player E-211, $6.61
Player F-110, $6.09
This is Fua9999 vs. the same players
Player A-537, $6.30
Player B-205, $7.31
Player C-459, $5.74
Player D-280, $4.31
Player E-185, $5.80
Player F-68, $6.74
So, from this we can assume that the average $ per player per pot should be somewhere between $4.34 (if we are passive and/or play a lot of 3/6) and $7.94 (if we are aggressive and/or play a lot of 5/10)
Fua9999 vs. Furbean-729 hands, $2.66 in action per player per hand.
that is barely more than the small blind at 5/10.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonJuan
If anyone is interested I have just have and looked at 100 hands that they actually were in the pot together out of 65k on furbean and 69k fua9999 this year. There are actually a lot of weird play. They never defend each other steals or just fold if one was sb or bb in unopen pot. They never got past the flop together, even if one were raising and capping pre flop. Which is extremely rare since you would think one would showdown at least a few with thousands of hands together.
edit: it 23k hands together I have that they were at the tables together. only 99 hands where they each won/lose any money against each other. both never show hands together at SD. It more like soft play I guess but silly.
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Thanks for looking at some hands Don. I appreciate a little backup on this. I'm not sure what you mean by silly, though. Do you mean it is silly of them to softplay? Or do you mean that it is silly for us to worry about it? Or do you mean it is just a bizarre way to play the hands?
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