If further consolidation is desired, it would seem to make more sense to remove 20/40 altogether and leave 15/30 alone.

I am sure I am reading this wrong, Merge is considering fixing the rake in LHE but not any of the other limit games? The rake is an even bigger difference in O8 and Stud8. If anything it should be fixed in those games first. If Merge fixes only LHE it would be a total fail. They might as well not fix anything. I cannot think of a time in history a poker room had a different rake for LHE than limit other games.

The reason all of the O8 and Stud8 action on Stars didn't move after BF was the rake. This does nothing to solve that.

This is the answer I was given by a site rep when I asked the same questions.


"The changes being worked out now are exclusive to LHE. That does that mean it's the only change to come. As has been pointed out in a few threads, change is coming in pretty much every regard in the coming weeks and months. But it's going to be laid one(or more accurately, a couple) things at a time. We can't change everything, and changing LHE is being made the priority for now. I don't share your opinion that every limit non LHE player will insulted, if we reach out for more feedback, and promise changes to come in the near future."


I guess that answers all your questions, right?

20/40 is the natural go between for 10/20 and 30/60. If it were removed and 15/30 kept, the gap would be smaller on one end and larger on the other. As stated, 15/30 is being considered for a 2/3rd blind structure variant.

This is not off the table to my knowledge. It's simply not the first thing to be addressed. As stated numerous times throughout all of these threads... please provide us with data guys. From other sites, from Merge, etc.


Cheers,

--
Kahn

Kahn,

Your integrity/motivations behind these changes has been called out in this thread as have a few other posters. Since you seem to be the only person in this thread actually talking to the Merge reps behind the scenes I think it's best that you share what affiliation you have with merge. Whether that be just being a player or if you have an affiliate site and to which Merge skins. I'm not suggesting anything wrong with any of that but it should be on the table for all to see.

After that's out of the way I would like to see a rough blue print on how much the rake changes are going to be. There is no point for many of us to have any interest in this thread if we are talking only a slight decrease in rake. If rake (after rakeback,vip system) were to be dropped to Pokerstars levels I'd move all my cash game play to the site which could easily bring to the website 50K-100k a year in rake if I were to make the switch back to LHE fulltime.

Also a timeframe for other Limit games rake changes and what sort of reductions should be expressed as soon as you're in the know.

As a limit, non-LHE player, I feel insulted by the current proposal. With all due respect to LHE players, why should its rake be fixed before LimitO8/StudO8, split-pot games wherein two players frequently go ALL-IN with the near nuts, and very often they lose money on the play because they end up with just half the pot due to a split, or they may even lose getting unlucky. Throw in the wrench of increased rake such as exists on the Splerge network and all of the sudden bankrolls are being lost ("u gon' get Raked" style) during simple attempts to play some pots.

What exactly is LHE, if not NLH's predecessor whose main effect seems to be reducing the variance one may have in playing similar-stakes NLH. I simply don't see the love for LHE. U have donkfish reducing their variance from NLH, and the sharks who fleece them. pretty simple, and perhaps mind-numbing. not very creative, perhaps.

Guys, it's LHE only. I have bashed my head in on the Carbon limit rake thread trying to get them to understand the huge mistake they are making by changing the rake in one limit game and not the others. They simply don't understand the consequences. It's beyond their comprehension at this point. So let the LHE rake change happen and they can deal with the aftermath that follows.

The only answer you will get if you ask about other limit games is to send in data. They seemingly don't have people working for them that can understand the problems and gather data on their own. So if you are a customer at their site and play a limit game other than LHE start sending them data.

I don't even know what that means. How do I compile data on games like 5 card draw or HORSE? Do I need to go out and buy some special software that will save data somehow so I can send it to them to review. I'm not sure what they are asking for here either. What kind of data do they need to see that no players are sitting at tables in many of the limit games?

What data are they asking for? Every site has their rake schedule posted on their site. No other site besides Action Poker/Chico rakes limit games like this. They do not need us to send them links to every other poker room's rake page. Since tracking software does not track anything besides holdem and omaha then there is really nothing else to send in.

you need to fix all limit rake not just holdem. Stop dragging your feet on this crap and get it done

Does anybody know of any software that is legal to use on Merge that will compile data that they need for the mixed games or the draw games. Maybe even the stud and razz games?

Maybe someone from Merge or a Merge affiliate or insider could please post what kind of data they want for draw or mixed games, and how we can compile this data they need to initiate a negotiation process for each individual limit game?

Salutations,

SE

Here is the latest reply to my questions on why LHE is the only limit game to enjoy lower rake. From Carbon Ryan.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

"All games are not structured equally, and more consultation needs to happen to make sure that each structure is changed correctly. There is no 'magic formula' for changes across the board.

We are intent on ensuring that any changes made are made correctly the first time, so while it may take longer, we can be assured that its done right.

Ryan"

------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not entirely sure what they mean by all games are not structured equally.

I also don't understand why they think using the same rake structure for all limit games is a "magic formula". It's not magic, it's the way it's always been for every network and site since limit poker came into existence. To change the rake for LHE only sounds more like a "magic formula" to me.

For one, limit draw has only two rounds of betting, limit hold'em has four and stud games have five. Some games are split pot games and some are not. At Merge, limit hold'em anyway has no cap on heads up pots, where other networks have a four-bet cap. I'm guessing that's what they mean.

If all the limit games are not raked the same way, then would you have different rake structures at the same table for mixed games like HORSE, meaning you would have one rake structure for hold'em hands and then a different rake structure for hands played in the other four games?If you can rake all five games the same way in HORSE, then why is it a problem to do it at the other tables?

Don't people at Merge think things through? Like all the badugi cash games are pass-and-back-in, half-pot limit with antes, but the tournament badugi games are pass-and-out, pot limit with blinds. Why the huge difference? Silly.

So you think they believe the structure of a limit game deems which ones deserve to be considered for a future rake reduction? I'm still not getting why structure really matters. In NL games they don't base the rake on the structure of each game, they are all raked the same, as it has been for limit games. Why would a limit game need further review of it's structure to get the same benefits as LHE?

If the structure of the game was important then wouldn't they have started with O8 and Stud hi/lo for a reduction in it's rake? Everyone knows those two games are hit the hardest by Merges limit rake structure.

Maybe when they get a new CEO he will better understand this issue. The old CEO must not have understood the issue at all.

I've given my motivation already in this thread. I love this game, I've been a pro at it for nearly 10 years now. I want it to thrive.
My profile is open to the public. Mike Haven strictly enforces the removal and punishment of "spam" of any kind, so this is all that I will, or can, say.


If I had permission to tell you, I would. I'd love to be the one to break this news to the community... I hope they allow me the honor when the time comes.



Ideally very large samples of actual real world win/loss rates from a variety of stakes at all competing networks to compare versus Merge would go a long way.



Cheers,

--
Kahn

There is a reason merge was just a random crappy small site before BF