You are stating an opinion as if it is a fact. No one knows what they are making from sportsbetting. I'm sure during NFL season it's quite profitable. There are other times of the year where I'm sure it's much lower.

I don't see why it has to be one or the other. They can make a profit from sportsbetting and they can make a profit from poker.

I'm not sure where this assumption comes from that a guy who likes to play poker and also likes to bet NFL games will automatically blow his roll on NFL games should the poker room die. More than likely he would just continue to bet the same amount he always has on sportsbetting while not playing poker anymore, thus the room actually makes less.

No one is saying that Merge can't do what they want. It's their business, if they want to run it into the ground then they are free to do so. I think most of us are just baffled by their decisions.

Perhaps I'm way off base and they will make millions more by cutting the poker table limit down to 2 tables. Seems unlikely though.

This isn't unique profit for them! It's money that comes out of net depositers that they were going to get anyway.

If there were 31 players that wanted to play 1-2 6max, one 6-table grinder and 30 fish, the site would make much more money if they were arranged at 5 tables without the grinder than 6 tables with the grinder at each table despite the loss of rake. The money that the grinder makes at the 6 tables comes out of the their bottom line, with zero net benefit to the site. The extra rake they take is simply recouping a small portion of this profit leakage.

If you look at the link the I provided revenues for a site like Bwin.Party show twice as much money was brought in with sportsbetting, this doesn't include the money take out for all of the things i mention above which is higher with poker than sports betting. I challenge you to find a site that offer both and shows more profit with Poker than Sports betting or even Casino revenue. There are a lot of publicly traded companies, so you have a lot of chances.

It is. If you can't understand how allowing winning players to multiply their presence by a factor of 16x or more hasn't been destructive to the "poker ecosystem" overall then you can't see the obvious. Not to mention the loss to the sportsbook of the suckers' money that goes into our pockets instead of theirs.

But I suspect it's more self-delusion and willful ignorance that's all too common in this so-called community.

Those tables never get going in the first place without the grinder. I know because I play almost every single day. And every single day when I log on I start tables. By the end of my session there are always way more tables running then when I started my session. I hardly ever see 2 fish start a table.

You are also forgetting about breakeven multi-tabling players, who are much more profitable for the site than fish.

This post is full of willful ignorance. How is the profit I take off the site much more destructive to the "poker ecosystem" then the almost 400k in rake the site took. My profit is a drop in the bucket compared to that.

And I never said they should make the table limit 16 tables. But it should definitely be more than 2. 2 includes registering for any mtt, so if you want to play a tourney you can only 1 table cash games.

And once again, in your post you assume that a guy who loses money in the poker room will automatically blow that same money on sportsbetting if he is not losing it in poker. That is a false assumption.

In a separate thread...

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...3/index85.html

And before Revolution formed. Which Merge skin was known for its fast cashouts? That's right Lock. In the US we don't get to choose the best poker site to play on anymore. We are forced to choose which site is currently damaging itself the least. Why my opinion seems to be such a threat to you, I don't know.

Great, debate is done. As has been pointed out repeatedly by Merge rationalists, poker is not a game that Merge wants to promote obviously, and they haven't in fact. Therefore, to play on Merge is to play on the grave of the past. Even Chico has more cash games running now. That's very sad, almost unbelievable. So if Merge doesn't want poker players, take the hint, stop playing on an anti-poker network and move to one of the others. Merge (poker) is dead, they only want you if you play in their casino it seems. They only want those with gambling problems, degenerates, who drop all their money to the site with never a return.

Merge has systemic problems as a poker site. They don't know how to generate a profit through poker even with the industries highest rake. This shows very poor management and a lack of leadership. If you are a degen with a serious casino itch, give your money to Merge, they want you bad.

One way Merge could make more money is to stop giving these affiliates 40% of players net revenue for a lifetime! You think they'd figure that out at some point.

It should be obvious that bad players (those that are net depositors) playing against more players that are much better will lose their money much faster. The money that's not raked, but withdrawn from winners' accounts is money the sites cannot earn. These losing players will only deposit a finite amount. They do NOT automatically top off every time they lose their online rolls.

The actual number of good players is actually a low percentage and, when playing an equal number of games as losers, aren't much of a problem. Multiplying the number of tables that winners play causes a much faster drain of those losers' funds. The result is a decrease in the number of hands played by losers. The games are worse overall and the sites end up sending out more money to winners from each loser's deposit.

Meanwhile ALL money lost in a sports book is lost TO the sports book. NOT other players. Same thing with the casino games. The difference is as obvious as it is large.

It shouldn't come as a shock to you that Ponzi schemes pay out in the beginning, even perhaps for a long time.

thanks

Then what are you worried about? If that's the case then Lock won't right itself as a business and I certainly won't give them mine.

Have you ever heard of a site that is called PokerStars? They only offer poker games. I heard they are making very good profits. Poker is a profitable game to offer.

By your reasoning though, if PokerStars offered a casino game or other degen game then they would have to all but stop offering poker because the casino game would be more profitable to them and maximize their profits. As if all players are only at a site to degen their bankroll to the site itself with no hope for a return. Faulty logic.

Poker is a game of skill. If a poker network can't handle the fact that a small percentage of skillful players will undoubtedly make some cash outs, then they aren't really a poker network, are they? Therefore, poker players won't be defending them anymore. If you are defending a site that makes it obvious it only wants players who lose in their casino and sportsbook then why are you here in a internet poker forum posting rubbish about how smart Merge is to destroy the poker infrastructure to maximize corporate profits?

i think my screen name is irrelevant. i was transferred to Aced from PDC last November. In that time period I have accumulated 541,404 points; the equivalent of $54,100 in rake. My play has mostly been SNGs and I have mixed in some mtt. i start games a fair amount I guess. Maybe they like me because I re-enter mtts until registration closes

Does Lifetime VIP Points include bonus points from happy hour and sng boost? I think it does.

good question and I never thought about that. Perhaps you are right. i divided my number by ~11(months ive been there) and its real close to $5k; i doubt i averaged that much in rake per month since i started at Aced

because you know these things? so you're a VP in Merge gaming? or you hacked their financials or planted a listening device in their conference room? maybe a consultant from Baine that just finished 6 months at their HQ giving them recommendations about the strategic direction of their business?

back in forth with you is quite useless. u dont like Merge, u think they are failing . OK. evidence?

"the evidence they are failing is because i say they are failing!"

if you had any logical reason for your ridiculous suppositions im sure you would have put it out there by now.

i don't know about player numbers, but there are 1500 people playing poker on Carbon right now at 6:45 on a Tuesday. and when their featured tournaments from the OPS start firing i think that number may increase a bit.

if the doom and gloom you spread in this thread was harmless i wouldn't really care to respond, but when people come in here with a genuine question, "is it safe to play on Merge" they will read your bull s****.

for the last 2 months your only posts on 2p2 are about how terrible Merge is and how they will soon crumble.

did some1 from Merge run over your dog, killing it instantly, then go inside your house to bang your wife?

I honestly don't think Merge is struggling (simply my opinion, not fact), but they are definitely trying to shift their focus to more poker recs who are more likely to dabble in the casino and sportsbook...that much is clear just from their actions and doesn't need all this "proof" people are asking for.

I think you're talking about me. On paper ownership is questionable and it's mostly untraceable but operationally I was told Sportsbook management pretty much calls all the shots for SB/PO skins and Carbon/Aced skins. I'm not going to elaborate more as not to incite the wrath of Kahn but...

I asked someone I know who runs another poker forum and is pretty much in the know on these issues and this is his response. The linked article discusses it too.

Hi Lisa,

You will never find out for sure since the whole Central American sportsbook/gambling scene is designed to not be transparent for obvious reasons.

I think it's probably safe to say that there is interrelated ownership between Merge, Carbon and the Jazette companies but there are probably very few people who know the true story. I certainly don't. I do know that Calvin Ayre has written that they are all connected and he would know.

This article from a reputable sports betting site probably sums things up the best.

http://sportsbettingsites.org/carbonsports/

Honestly though I don't know why it really matters. They are bunch of idiots with the business sense of a baboon making decisions to try to do what they think is necessary to keep their business solvent and make a profit. Unfortunately that means screwing over the regs with their "recreational model", limiting tables, the ridiculous late reg/re-entry periods that totally screw the game dynamics and kicking off regs who win too much and rake too little plus other idiotic things they do.

The problem is that they have decimated their player pool in the process, which is my major beef with them. They don't seem to care at all about the player pool. In the long run it doesn't matter if they're solvent or unsolvent, honest or dishonest if there aren't people sitting at the tables.

When Bodog changed to their Rec Player Model, as much as I don't like that model, what they did correctly is that they were very straightforward about what they were doing. They made the change all at once and made everything that they were doing public. They also used marketing to bring in a lot of new ROW recreational players. They could very well have segregated their ROW players from their US players but they didn't. The result was a very healthy player pool. Considering how crappy their software is, I think that it's clear that ultimately what players are really drawn to are large player pools. I think that its large player pools is what kept Lock afloat for so long too despite ridiculously slow cashouts.

Merge hasn't been doing that. Month by month they have been trying to sneak changes past players and have been making important changes with absolutely no prior notification. And they have fragmented their player pool. That type of behavior pisses players off, so they leave. A lot of players have bid their farewells in these forums.

They aren't trying to sneak, they're too stupid and inefficient to do it right. Do you really give them enough credit for being smart enough to do anything the right way?

I was being kind.

You are right, you don't know about player numbers. Start by differentiating real money players from play money players. According to PokerScout Merge has a 7 day average of 310 real money ring game players. Chico poker is 365! Two years ago nobody in their right mind would have predicted Chico would overtake Merge. Merge Poker Network is kind of failing by anyones measure. No?