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***Mass Sitout to Protest PokerStars 2012 Rake Changes*** ***Mass Sitout to Protest PokerStars 2012 Rake Changes***

12-30-2011 , 08:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OziBattler
As a limit guy I vote for Sect7G.
+1
***Mass Sitout to Protest PokerStars 2012 Rake Changes*** Quote
12-30-2011 , 08:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamcloud
About the sit-outs, can we schedule it per stakes? So 1 hour per stake based on some kind of schedule.

That way we can maximize the effect and increase awareness.
I was going to try to coordinate this as best as possible but unfortunately I'll be in the US till the 2nd. I will still do my best to help but someone who can get on stars should take the lead as far as guiding the sitout in an organized fashion. I think we should start at 100nl and 200nl and as it grows, move to other limits as well as small-mid plo.
***Mass Sitout to Protest PokerStars 2012 Rake Changes*** Quote
12-30-2011 , 08:56 PM
I think I said it in another thread.

I would be quite happy to have JH1 represent the overall interest of pokerplayers in particular nano/micro/ss players.


If you could get NoahSD - I think he would be good because there is prolly fewer 2+2ers with a solidier reputation.
***Mass Sitout to Protest PokerStars 2012 Rake Changes*** Quote
12-30-2011 , 08:58 PM
Thanks guys for nomination, but I think there are some better players out there, who can represent FL community.

Either Hood or Sect7G or FLKicksAss or Tpiranha.
I trust either one of them to do the best they can and not let FL die.

Solution is really simple anyway...
***Mass Sitout to Protest PokerStars 2012 Rake Changes*** Quote
12-30-2011 , 09:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JH1
QFT

We've gone on long enough thinking of ourselves as separate groups each with the mindset of if my group is doing ok, f the rest. This is how they wittle us down one group at a time.
Since day 1 of the full ring 6x / 6max 5.5x, every last player should have been fighting to move 6max up to 6x as well.
Since day 1 of the SNG rake changes we should have been fighting for them to get a fair deal, too. But cash players don't consider what's good for SNGs is good for poker.

I now seriously regret that I did not even consider these other issues where players were getting ****ed over since they had no bearing on my bottom line.
I think the problem here is that few players not Supernova+ will care or if they do feel that their issues are neglected in this strike.

Personally I agree with the strike on principle. Unfair by Stars to try to make more money while pretending otherwise.

However for most players (meaning micro and low) it doesn't really matter if Stars or a SNE takes the money. When an SNE makes an extra $20K that money is never seen at the lower levels again.

Actually if Stars takes some of that money there is a (slim) chance that some of it comes back to the micros in some way.

If ChicagoJoey (sorry just an example) gets it there is zero chance it comes back.

So if you guys want some real help from the masses you should strike for a 4% rake (with linear rake). Period. Cause that money will move upwards.

Nevermind the multiplier and other stuff. Lower rake will keep more money moving up. Higher multiplier may help you stay the same for awhile but won't do anything for the long run. And won't get you the support of the masses.
***Mass Sitout to Protest PokerStars 2012 Rake Changes*** Quote
12-30-2011 , 09:14 PM
I've thought more and more about the proposed negotiation with PokerStars and bringing 2-3 representatives to address the issue behind closed doors and tend to agree with apefish and others that this may not be the best way for the community to achieve it's goals.

Not only is a very difficult for 2-3 people to represent all the limits/game types but also forcing people to sign a NDA can diminish their ability to get feedback from the community.

As a group, we are not asking for ANY information regarding PokerStars' operations or anything that should be extremely confidential. We are purely trying to address changes that were already made very public by PokerStars. I feel that if a small group of people are forced to sign NDAs and negotiate behind close doors, it will be hard for the community to achieve its goals in an efficient matter.

An Alternative

A better alternative in my opinion and others, would be to have some type of video conference that can be had by few, but watched by many. A handful of picked members would be able to speak with Stars representatives in an organized and moderated fashion while the rest of the community watches and offers feedback in another public forum. Although we will never be able to please every single person's requests, we will have the best chance of appealing to the majority by keeping this out in the open.

I am not sure that Steve will want to go in this direction but I think it is clearly better for the players and the community as a whole. Please feel free to post your thoughts/concerns as well as some logistics for setting up such a conference if you have the knowledge on the best ways to do so.
***Mass Sitout to Protest PokerStars 2012 Rake Changes*** Quote
12-30-2011 , 09:17 PM
I vote for Klairic
***Mass Sitout to Protest PokerStars 2012 Rake Changes*** Quote
12-30-2011 , 09:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSauce
I've thought more and more about the proposed negotiation with PokerStars and bringing 2-3 representatives to address the issue behind closed doors and tend to agree with apefish and others that this may not be the best way for the community to achieve it's goals.
The behind close doors is in regards to the data, not the final decision IMO.

A better alternative would be to have the representatives report back to the forum what they are considering.

I seriously doubt 2-3 reps are going to Stars, shut the doors, then come out and say "This is what we did, now live with it."

If Stars was going to do that there is no need to invite the reps in the first place, they can just do it themselves.
***Mass Sitout to Protest PokerStars 2012 Rake Changes*** Quote
12-30-2011 , 09:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg777
The behind close doors is in regards to the data, not the final decision IMO.

A better alternative would be to have the representatives report back to the forum what they are considering.

I seriously doubt 2-3 reps are going to Stars, shut the doors, then come out and say "This is what we did, now live with it."

If Stars was going to do that there is no need to invite the reps in the first place, they can just do it themselves.
I agree, but since NDAs are often very extensive and inclusive of a lot of things, they may not be able to discuss the details of their negotiation during the time it is happening.

Also 2-3 members of the community will likely be unable to represent the entire community as a group when they are alone in IOM vs being on 2p2 constantly and being able to see live commentary during the discussion.
***Mass Sitout to Protest PokerStars 2012 Rake Changes*** Quote
12-30-2011 , 09:42 PM
There's no reason also that a skype style conference call with the smaller group cant take place with those same members having access to a dedicated thread where both the players and stars can talk about their positions, responses, etc.

This hybrid addresses time sensitivity as well as openness to the community. it makes it cleaner to follow for anyone interested in developments also.

If stars wants to open up numbers to scrutiny to some players on the isle of man that shouldn't take the place of any other robust discussion that takes place here in the forums.
***Mass Sitout to Protest PokerStars 2012 Rake Changes*** Quote
12-30-2011 , 09:56 PM
What is klairic position regarding the changes ? Any post that i can see
***Mass Sitout to Protest PokerStars 2012 Rake Changes*** Quote
12-30-2011 , 10:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSauce
I agree, but since NDAs are often very extensive and inclusive of a lot of things, they may not be able to discuss the details of their negotiation during the time it is happening.
I'm loosely following this from afar. I'd have thought one of the first things you would want to do is to get a copy of the NDA. Its not impossible Stars would want to keep the contents of the NDA itself confidential, but I think you would want to publish it so it is clear what you can talk about and what you can't talk about.

Stars defence may be:
a)"Actually this doesn't take money from the players. Here is our maths"
b)"This does take money from the players, but here are our figures. We need xxx to maintain our profit from last year, our shareholders are demanding yyy and we plan to spend zzz in s/w development of game www. Our banks will only allow us so much, so continue we need this money"
c)"This does take money from the grinders, but we are refocussing much of our marketing/rakeback budget onto attracting casual players. Here are our plans"

I could see an NDA being written that would mean people coming back from the IoM with a clear understanding of the plans, but with an inability to say much other than "they have their reasons".
***Mass Sitout to Protest PokerStars 2012 Rake Changes*** Quote
12-30-2011 , 10:06 PM
I think that the idea of having people represent different games and stakes is not constructive and doesn't have the best possible result in mind. When deciding on changes that are most beneficial to everyone it is most important to not let personal interests influence your judgements. I really think everyone representing the poker community as a whole needs to adopt the principle of the 'veil of ignorance'.

As I said in the other thread, I'm also willing to challenge anyones position on what the best changes would be if it first and foremost doesn't involve lowering the rake universally.
***Mass Sitout to Protest PokerStars 2012 Rake Changes*** Quote
12-30-2011 , 10:08 PM
Wanted to xpost this from the main changes thread (I also posted it in the cliffs/details thread)


Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerStars Steve
For users of Hold'em Manager, the below procedure will show you the difference in VPP earnings between weighed contributed and dealt. It should take about five minutes.


1. Open PGAdmin III from your Postgres folder.


2. Connect to your local PostgreSQL server by right clicking and selecting Connect.'

If you are prompted for a Username and Password, the default username is usually 'postgres'. The default password will either be 'postgrespass' or dbpass'.


3. Once connected, click on your HoldemManager database. This is usually 'HoldemManager'. Then, with this database highlighted, click on the icon that shows a piece of paper with 'SQL' written on it. This will open a new window with some text.


4. Highlight all of the text in this window, and paste the following code into the window.

Code:
create or replace function amountPreflopInvested(tn playerhandscashmisc, pkh_id integer) returns integer AS $$
DECLARE
	amount integer := 0;
	other integer := 0;
BEGIN
	amount := tn.postamountpreflop + tn.betamountpreflop + tn.callamountpreflop;
	select max(pre.postamountpreflop + pre.betamountpreflop + pre.callamountpreflop) into other from pokerhands join 

playerhandscashkeycolumns using (pokerhand_id) join playerhandscashmisc pre using (playerhand_id) where pokerhand_id=pkh_id and not ishero;
	return least(amount, other);
END;
$$ language plpgsql;

create or replace function amountFlopInvested(tn playerhandsflop, pkh_id integer) returns integer AS $$
DECLARE
	amount integer := 0;
	other integer := 0;
BEGIN
	amount := tn.betamount + tn.callamount;
	select max(flop.betamount+flop.callamount) into other from pokerhands join playerhandscashkeycolumns using (pokerhand_id) join 

playerhandscashmisc using (playerhand_id) join playerhandsflop flop using(playerhand_id) where pokerhand_id=pkh_id and not ishero;
	return least(amount, other);
END;
$$ language plpgsql;

create or replace function amountTurnInvested(tn playerhandsturn, pkh_id integer) returns integer AS $$
DECLARE
	amount integer := 0;
	other integer := 0;
BEGIN
	amount := tn.betamount + tn.callamount;
	select max(turn.betamount+turn.callamount) into other from pokerhands join playerhandscashkeycolumns using (pokerhand_id) join 

playerhandscashmisc using (playerhand_id) join playerhandsturn turn using(playerhand_id) where pokerhand_id=pkh_id and not ishero;
	return least(amount, other);
END;
$$ language plpgsql;

create or replace function amountRiverInvested(tn playerhandsriver, pkh_id integer) returns integer AS $$
DECLARE
	amount integer := 0;
	other integer := 0;
BEGIN
	amount := tn.betamount + tn.callamount;
	select max(river.betamount+river.callamount) into other from pokerhands join playerhandscashkeycolumns using (pokerhand_id) join 

playerhandscashmisc using (playerhand_id) join playerhandsriver river using(playerhand_id) where pokerhand_id=pkh_id and not ishero;
	return least(amount, other);
END;
$$ language plpgsql;
	

select count(*) as "Hands", round(sum(a.rakeamount/a.numberofplayers))/100.0 as "Rake dealt",
round ( sum(a.rakeamount * 1.* (
		case when (b.maxstreetseen=0 or b.streetwentallin=1) then (amountPreflopInvested(c, a.pokerhand_id))
		when (b.maxstreetseen=1 or b.streetwentallin=2) then (c.postamountpreflop + c.betamountpreflop + c.callamountpreflop + 

amountFlopInvested(f, a.pokerhand_id))
		when (b.maxstreetseen=2 or b.streetwentallin=3) then (c.postamountpreflop + c.betamountpreflop + c.callamountpreflop + 

f.betamount + f.callamount + amountTurnInvested(t, a.pokerhand_id))
		else (c.postamountpreflop + c.betamountpreflop + c.callamountpreflop + f.betamount + f.callamount + t.betamount + 

t.callamount + amountRiverInvested(r, a.pokerhand_id)) end
	) / (a.potsize))
) / 100.0 as "WC Rake"
from pokerhands a join playerhandscashkeycolumns b using (pokerhand_id) join playerhandscashmisc c using (playerhand_id)
left join playerhandsflop f using(playerhand_id) left join playerhandsturn t using(playerhand_id) left join playerhandsriver r using

(playerhand_id)
where ishero and potsize>0 and a.handtimestamp>'2011-01-01 00:00:00' and a.site_id=2;
5. Once you have done this, press 'F5'. PostgreSQL will run for a short period of time and then display your rake under the Dealt method and the Weighted Contributed method in the screen below.



This code was kindly provided by 2p2 member GobletTamer.
It's important for you all to know how this change will affect you. It's a very simple process and only takes a few minutes even on large databases. Most of us here have already dont it, but incase you haven't take time to do this now so you know what is coming on Jan 1st if there are no new changes.
***Mass Sitout to Protest PokerStars 2012 Rake Changes*** Quote
12-30-2011 , 10:17 PM
What would players think of a permanent added promotion approach to compensating players?

For example, say in 2011 you played 8 hours a day, and you got 100 VPP an hour. You expect a 15% hit overall, for a decrease to 680 VPP a day (from 800). That sucks.

But what if two of those hours were during ring game happy hours, where you made 1.5x VPP? Then you're back up to 765 points a day. It's still a small loss, but remember - casual players are getting more, and that's not a bad thing. The ring game happy hours could, generally speaking, make the amount lost by regulars and the amount gained by casual players closer to even, solving any "money grab" problems.

It could also generate increased traffic for Stars, which isn't a bad thing.

So basically, what I would suggest is:

Make ring game happy hours a permanent fixture. Schedule them four times a day and spread out the times, such as 6 p.m., 12 p.m., 6 a.m., and 12 a.m., so as many players can use them as possible, while also making it relatively easy to hit multiples if you want, but relatively hard to hit all four. If they wanted, they could even make some of them a 2x multiplier, like FTP used to do, with some 2x and some 3x happy hours.

Remember, this whole mess started because we were worried about the money grab that WC represents. If stars invested in ring game happy hours, it would "make it right" with players, while also giving them a great promotional tool.

If they kept the monthly bonus for "on pace" that would be cool too, but imo that's just less important, as it benefits casuals much less, while adding a lot of value for high end grinders, which imo just isn't that important (we already have milestone credits).

Thoughts on this? I'm just trying to think outside the box at ways this situation can be made into a "win/win" or solid compromise without burning all parties.
***Mass Sitout to Protest PokerStars 2012 Rake Changes*** Quote
12-30-2011 , 10:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSauce
I agree, but since NDAs are often very extensive and inclusive of a lot of things, they may not be able to discuss the details of their negotiation during the time it is happening.

Also 2-3 members of the community will likely be unable to represent the entire community as a group when they are alone in IOM vs being on 2p2 constantly and being able to see live commentary during the discussion.
Agreed, which is why it would be much better to have 2+2 work out a unified proposal of changes to submit to Stars, but so far there have only been random suggestions.

This would be much quicker and more transparent than a trip to IoM.

Here are my suggestions for starters:

1- Rake cap reductions.
2. Rake reduction to 4.5% as Stars proposed.
3. Increase of .5 VPP for all poker types.


NL rake cap reductions:

.01-.02, .02-.05, .05-.10 --- 1.00 cap
.10-.25, .25-.50, .50-1 --- 1.50 cap
1-2 --- 2.00 cap
2-4 --- 2.50 cap
3-6, 5-10 --- 3.00 cap

Someone else can chime in for LHE, MTTs and SNGs.

We have known about this for days but there is little organization for a proposal, that is what people should be doing.

Create a thread with a poll and keep revising until you get a majority decision. There is already one thread and nobody is replying.
***Mass Sitout to Protest PokerStars 2012 Rake Changes*** Quote
12-30-2011 , 10:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg777
Agreed, which is why it would be much better to have 2+2 work out a unified proposal of changes to submit to Stars, but so far there have only been random suggestions.

This would be much quicker and more transparent than a trip to IoM.

Here are my suggestions for starters:

1- Rake cap reductions.
2. Rake reduction to 4.5% as Stars proposed.
3. Increase of .5 VPP for all poker types.


NL rake cap reductions:

.01-.02, .02-.05, .05-.10 --- 1.00 cap
.10-.25, .25-.50, .50-1 --- 1.50 cap
1-2 --- 2.00 cap
2-4 --- 2.50 cap
3-6, 5-10 --- 3.00 cap

Someone else can chime in for LHE, MTTs and SNGs.

We have known about this for days but there is little organization for a proposal, that is what people should be doing.

Create a thread with a poll and keep revising until you get a majority decision. There is already one thread and nobody is replying.
I have continued to post new proposals and things that seem to be the consensus in the cliffs/details thread. Nobody is allowed to reply in order to keep it very organized and to the point.

I will post this there if it generates a lot of +1s or is agreeable amongst the majority. One change I think people will also want you to make is a flat VPP multiplier everywhere instead of the .5 increase. IE: 6.5x across the board.

I for one, still don't understand why the short handed games are at 5.5x.
***Mass Sitout to Protest PokerStars 2012 Rake Changes*** Quote
12-30-2011 , 10:25 PM
I vote for anyone that doesnt waste time on WTA vs WC discussion because most players lose 30-35 % with both methods. I vote for anyone that gets us grinders our 30% loss in rakeback in either increasing the VPP multiplier or lowering the rake to the point that our money lost is compensated. Doesnt matter if its klairic or whoever just get us voices clearly delivered to stars reps.
***Mass Sitout to Protest PokerStars 2012 Rake Changes*** Quote
12-30-2011 , 10:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg777
Agreed, which is why it would be much better to have 2+2 work out a unified proposal of changes to submit to Stars, but so far there have only been random suggestions.

This would be much quicker and more transparent than a trip to IoM.

Here are my suggestions for starters:

1- Rake cap reductions.
2. Rake reduction to 4.5% as Stars proposed.
3. Increase of .5 VPP for all poker types.


NL rake cap reductions:

.01-.02, .02-.05, .05-.10 --- 1.00 cap
.10-.25, .25-.50, .50-1 --- 1.50 cap
1-2 --- 2.00 cap
2-4 --- 2.50 cap
3-6, 5-10 --- 3.00 cap

Someone else can chime in for LHE, MTTs and SNGs.

We have known about this for days but there is little organization for a proposal, that is what people should be doing.

Create a thread with a poll and keep revising until you get a majority decision. There is already one thread and nobody is replying.
While this would be great, it would way overcompensate for the change to WC. If Stars would be willing to overcompensate, we should just lobby for 4% rake.

Happy hours are just an arbitrary universal VPP increase, I don't see how they are better than just a straight up VPP increase which I think is worse than a rake decrease.
***Mass Sitout to Protest PokerStars 2012 Rake Changes*** Quote
12-30-2011 , 10:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gNt
I vote for anyone that doesnt waste time on WTA vs WC discussion because most players lose 30-35 % with both methods. I vote for anyone that gets us grinders our 30% loss in rakeback in either increasing the VPP multiplier or lowering the rake to the point that our money lost is compensated. Doesnt matter if its klairic or whoever just get us voices clearly delivered to stars reps.
You can't be compensated 100% without Stars overcompensating the change. You do see why, right? Again, if Stars would be willing to go a step further, a rake decrease would be in the best overall interest of the game, no additional high tiered promotions or whatnot.

Many of you are way too attached to get your way to be constructive on the topic. This is the best opportunity we ever had to change things to the better, it's not the time to only think about yourself.
***Mass Sitout to Protest PokerStars 2012 Rake Changes*** Quote
12-30-2011 , 10:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrryjrryjin
While this would be great, it would way overcompensate for the change to WC. If Stars would be willing to overcompensate, we should just lobby for 4% rake.
Lowering the rake to 4% does not address the rake imbalance that a rake cap reduction would.
***Mass Sitout to Protest PokerStars 2012 Rake Changes*** Quote
12-30-2011 , 10:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg777
Lowering the rake to 4% does not address the rake imbalance that a rake cap reduction would.
I've been talking about reducing the rake caps probably more than you by now. x_X What I suggested so far is a little bit more conservative than you, but as I said, I really would like to direct our focus on rake percentages and caps over everything else and figure something out.

I completely agree with you that the rake caps deserve our attention and should be changed.
***Mass Sitout to Protest PokerStars 2012 Rake Changes*** Quote
12-30-2011 , 10:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starvingwriter82
What would players think of a permanent added promotion approach to compensating players?

For example, say in 2011 you played 8 hours a day, and you got 100 VPP an hour. You expect a 15% hit overall, for a decrease to 680 VPP a day (from 800). That sucks.

But what if two of those hours were during ring game happy hours, where you made 1.5x VPP? Then you're back up to 765 points a day. It's still a small loss, but remember - casual players are getting more, and that's not a bad thing. The ring game happy hours could, generally speaking, make the amount lost by regulars and the amount gained by casual players closer to even, solving any "money grab" problems.

It could also generate increased traffic for Stars, which isn't a bad thing.

So basically, what I would suggest is:

Make ring game happy hours a permanent fixture. Schedule them four times a day and spread out the times, such as 6 p.m., 12 p.m., 6 a.m., and 12 a.m., so as many players can use them as possible, while also making it relatively easy to hit multiples if you want, but relatively hard to hit all four. If they wanted, they could even make some of them a 2x multiplier, like FTP used to do, with some 2x and some 3x happy hours.

Remember, this whole mess started because we were worried about the money grab that WC represents. If stars invested in ring game happy hours, it would "make it right" with players, while also giving them a great promotional tool.

If they kept the monthly bonus for "on pace" that would be cool too, but imo that's just less important, as it benefits casuals much less, while adding a lot of value for high end grinders, which imo just isn't that important (we already have milestone credits).

Thoughts on this? I'm just trying to think outside the box at ways this situation can be made into a "win/win" or solid compromise without burning all parties.
As a casual player, I like this idea a lot. Plus, it'll give me incentive to put in more volume!

As far as I remember, FTP's happy hours were quite successful.
***Mass Sitout to Protest PokerStars 2012 Rake Changes*** Quote
12-30-2011 , 10:46 PM
GO~
***Mass Sitout to Protest PokerStars 2012 Rake Changes*** Quote
12-30-2011 , 10:58 PM
Wow... just Wow...O,

I've been playing on Pokerstars all day long. I've been talking about the rake hike on every table i've been at.

LOL at the players!! Almost nobody cares at all! WTF? I mean everyone telling me to screw off and shut the hell up etc etc... can't be good to even get maybe 10-15% of player base sitting out, it just would not be enough. IMO.

I am trying my best to educate everyone I play on Pokerstars , but really the truth is that the majority do not care one bit!!?? I find this highly disturbing, and Stars being Stars knows this and will not change and might actually make things worse.

Seems like to me they only care about the "masses" and not the "few" which actually I would agree bring them a lot of rake! However its gonna be hard for us to change their mind because I gotta tell ya the "masses" don't care one bit, ive been online all day and no one cares, only I care as a good few players told me to shut the hell up lol. Also they say the changes to the VIP program are great they are going to get free bonus money!! LOL , cluelesstards!! (No wonder there is so much dead money on Stars)

anyways I'll keep trying to inform everyone but truth be told I am not getting anywhere!
***Mass Sitout to Protest PokerStars 2012 Rake Changes*** Quote

      
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