*** Mass Sitout - Pokerstars - Jan 1st - Details Thread ***
Note: Please do not reply to this thread or your post will be deleted by a moderator. If you have something to contribute, please use the original Mass Sitout thread HERE in order to discuss.
As the Mass Sitout thread is now getting quite long and continues to evolve rapidly, I am going to be posting here the cliffs and strategies for our protest as well as what we are attempting to accomplish in doing so. As the mods on 2p2 have graciously agreed to let me start this thread in order to keep everything organized, they have asked that no one else reply to it or their posts will be deleted. Thanks again to them. I will start with cliffs on what has happened so far: Pokerstars Steve announced Ring Game Rake changes on December 28th, 2011 that are effective January 1st, 2012. Link to the original post by Steve: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...58&postcount=1 Since then, all the physical rake amount and percentage changes we’re revoked in this post: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=654 Unfortunately, this was not the response we are looking for as players. The rake changes listed in the original post had some good parts to it including a decrease in fullring rake as well as rake at the micro limits. Our complaints about the rake percentage/cap changes were only the increase in cap at 5 handed play. These increases were substantial and would have had a negative affect primarily on shorthanded players above 25nl/plo. Weighted Contributed vs. Dealt Method of Calculating VPPs This is the main issue we are dealing with now since Stars has pulled the other changes already. To keep this brief, PokerStars is changing the method of awarding VPPs. The old system (Dealt) would take whatever the rake was for the hand and divide it by the number of players dealt into the hand. For instance, if 6 players were dealt into a hand that reached a $3 rake, each player would be awarded $0.50. That amount multiplied by the VPP multiplier (currently 6 for FR and 5.5 for shorthanded), would equal your amount of VPPs gained for that hand. For Weighted Contributed, the distribution would be more like this: Quote:
The problem with this change is that a very large majority of the sites regulars (and also most loyal clients) will lose some percentage of their rakeback. The changes will affect everyone differently based on your vpip, avg amount of money you contribute to the pot, and other factors. The tighter players will be affected more than the looser players on the site however most regulars (Nits, TAGs, LAGs, and everything between) will see a decrease in rakeback for the 2012 year if the changes announced remain. If you are interested in exactly how this will affect you please view GobletTamer’s post on how to view your rake changes using your database. I will say, that most reports, have been substantially lower (between 10-30% rakeback loss). Although changing the way VPPs are awarded should in theory result in some players losing an amount, and other players gaining an equal amount, this is not the case in the WC system. Since the only players who will substantially increase the amount of VPPs made per hand will typically be recreational players (due to their very high vpips and high showdown %), these recreational players will not have a high enough VIP level to substantially increase their rakeback. They will be forced to use their FPPs inefficiently or will not receive certain milestones because of their lack of play. This means that almost all the high volume regulars will lose money, the recreational players will gain very little, and stars will gain all the rest. What are we doing about it? As the biggest poker community on the net our opinions CERTAINLY deserve to be heard. We have already rallied together to start to create a protest against these changes. I have organized a Mass Sitout thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...anges-1145349/) in order to show Stars how serious we are about rejecting these proposed changes. The plan with this protest is, starting on January 1st and 12PM EST, to sit out on 24 tables each while also informing players who may be unaware as to what is going on and why so many regulars are sitting out in the games. The best plan of attack is to start with 1 or 2 limits (I propose we start with 100nl and 200nl) and then make our way through the other limits and games as more and more people join in. I will update this thread again when it is closer to the time to start sitting out in order to coordinate our effort and make sure our protest is very successful in sending a clear sign to the PokerStars Management. Also, we encourage each and every one of you to send PokerStars support (support@pokerstars.com) an email and let them know (politely please; remember, the support staff are not the ones coming up with the changes) that you are unhappy with the current proposed changes and will protest the changes if they are not reconsidered. We have also been tweeting to Daniel Negreanu (@realkidpoker) and PokerStars (@PokerStars) expressing our concerns. Earlier today we sent a prefilled tweet by the masses that said “@RealKidPoker please fight for the players @PokerStars and help mgmt see that the change to WC rake without any compensation is unfair!” Unfortunately, both Stars and Daniel did not understand and responded with “To all those tweeting at me about the rake changes, the issue has been addressed in the forum” which is very, very, misinformed. I have created a new prefilled tweet in order to tell both Daniel and Stars that they have NOT addressed the changes we have asked for and it can be sent HERE in order to respond to his incorrect reply. Please also change your location to “Sitting out @ PokerStars on Jan 1st” to help spread awareness of this issue to other parts of the 2p2 message board that may not browse Internet Poker frequently. What we are seeking: As it says in the link inside of the prefilled tweet, the following are our proposed changes (I will update this as we get new suggestions) (Originally posted by TheMetetrown) 1. Rake caps of $.50/$1/$1.5/$2/$3 for 2/3/4/5/6+ handed play 2. 4.5% linear rake up to the cap 3. The same proposed reductions for Rake at the micro limits. PLUS ONE OF THE FOLLOWING TWO OPTIONS 3a. Winner take all rake calculation method 4a. 6x VPP across the board OR 3b. WC rake calculation method 4b. 6.5x VPP across the board Also, we still need someone who is a regular in the limit games to address their rake concerns since I am not very knowledgeable in limit variants of poker. I think the most important thing to note is that we think any increased revenue Stars receives due to a change in the way that VPPs are awarded, should be given back to the players in some way, shape, or form. These are simply some proposed changes we think would be fair and would help give some of the money back to your most loyal customers. Side Note: There are also VIP/Rake changes happening on PokerStars.fr which have been said to decrease rakeback by 12.5% and possibly more. Since that is a separate site, I’ll keep this portion brief but it’s worth noting that this rakeback decrease is happening on multiple PokerStars sites. I will continue to update this thread when I have more information to share or more preparation for the Mass Sitout. Again I want to thank everyone for helping to take a stand against these changes. |
Re: *** Mass Sitout - Pokerstars - Jan 1st - Details Thread ***
Copy/paste / Quote this post:
bump since it's not sticky anymore. if it remains not sticky can ppl just post a copy of this bump and nothing else to keep it on front page but also keep it clutter free since there already is a discussion thread? each penultimate bump will be deleted |
Re: *** Mass Sitout - Pokerstars - Jan 1st - Details Thread ***
UPDATE:
Since my OP, there has been two responses from PokerStars Steve (quoted below). Quote:
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With that being said, they do at least to appear to be interested in negotiating with some players that represent the consensus view of PokerStars regulars. I'm not sure who the best group of people to represent us at this time are but as Steve asked, please make sure you continue to post names of people (and possibly some of their posts that make you feel they are qualified) in the thread in order to help our community choose the correct representatives. Lastly, I wanted to include this post by Duckslayer2k because I really think it's something that shows how a lot of us here on 2p2 feel. Thanks again to him for this. You may view it here: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=878 That's all for now but bare with me as I continue to update the cliffs as I sift through the (now very long) main mass sit out thread. Remember, in compliance with the Mod's request, please do not post in this thread unless it is to quote the allowed bump. Please continue all discussion on the main Sitout thread HERE and I will do my best to relay the main points here. |
Re: *** Mass Sitout - Pokerstars - Jan 1st - Details Thread ***
I also saw that this post has been added to my OP on the main sit out thread and it is also a very good illustration of how WC (if left alone and implemented solely) will affect the poker community and pokerstars.
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Re: *** Mass Sitout - Pokerstars - Jan 1st - Details Thread ***
I cannot say for sure, but I think this post could represent how several people feel as well about the negotiations with stars (bringing 2-3 people to isle of man for discussion) so I will add it:
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Re: *** Mass Sitout - Pokerstars - Jan 1st - Details Thread ***
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Remember, in compliance with the Mod's request, please do not post in this thread unless it is to quote the allowed bump. Please continue all discussion on the main Sitout thread HERE and I will do my best to relay the main points here. |
Re: *** Mass Sitout - Pokerstars - Jan 1st - Details Thread ***
Proposed Limit Rake Changes
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Re: *** Mass Sitout - Pokerstars - Jan 1st - Details Thread ***
I've thought more and more about the proposed negotiation with PokerStars and bringing 2-3 representatives to address the issue behind closed doors and tend to agree with apefish and others that this may not be the best way for the community to achieve it's goals.
Not only is it very difficult for 2-3 people to represent all the limits/game types but also forcing people to sign a NDA can diminish their ability to get feedback from the community. As a group, we are not asking for ANY information regarding PokerStars' operations or anything that should be extremely confidential. We are purely trying to address changes that were already made very public by PokerStars. I feel that if a small group of people are forced to sign NDAs and negotiate behind close doors, it will be hard for the community to achieve its goals in an efficient matter. An Alternative A better alternative in my opinion and others, would be to have some type of video conference that can be had by a few, but watched by many. A handful of picked members would be able to speak with Stars representatives in an organized and moderated fashion while the rest of the community watches and offers feedback in another public forum. Although we will never be able to please every single person's requests, we will have the best chance of appealing to the majority by keeping this out in the open. I am not sure that Steve will want to go in this direction but I think it is clearly better for the players and the community as a whole. Please feel free to post your thoughts/concerns in the main sitout thread as well as some logistics for setting up such a conference if you have the knowledge on the best ways to do so. Remember, in compliance with the Mod's request, please do not post in this thread unless it is to quote the allowed bump. Please continue all discussion on the main Sitout thread HERE and I will do my best to relay the main points here. |
Re: *** Mass Sitout - Pokerstars - Jan 1st - Details Thread ***
Also, for those of you who haven't already seen Goblet's post and calculated how this change will affect you; Steve has now posted it again with added screenshots to help.
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Two new interesting posts on alternate ways of compensation.
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Correction to JH1's Post. Quote:
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Re: *** Mass Sitout - Pokerstars - Jan 1st - Details Thread ***
PokerStars has contacted a few users in private in order to make a trip to the Isle of Man in mid-to-late January.
In order to create a unified voice that PokerStars will have an easier time hearing a group of us have held discussions about how best to proceed. This group consists of JH1, TheMetetrown, MSauce, Starvingwriter82, and Hood. Klairic has been invited but has not responded to the invitation yet. The community is free to suggest other participants for these discussions. A majority of the group has drafted a letter for Steve/PokerStars that we think represents the views of the group and the community as a whole. Below I have posted the letter and added our signatures to it. Please quote it and sign your name or simply +1 it if you agree HERE. Also, feel free to post any comments or concerns HERE. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Open letter to PokerStars Steve, After talking with players heavily involved in these discussions, we feel that it would be inappropriate to delay negotiations into mid to late January given the impending switch to WC and the immediate, unacceptable reduction in VIP benefits for our supporters and the player pool as a whole. We do not feel the need to see much, if any, sensitive information such as PokerStars' profits or business plan. We simply want to talk about the reductions in player benefits from the players' standpoint. We feel that any of the numbers we would be discussing involving rake caps, rake percentages, True vs Incremental rake, and Table-VPP multipliers etc. would be made open to the public and analyzed by the community, having no bearing on PokerStars inner business workings. We would like to propose an alternative method of communication that would alleviate these concerns and hold these discussions online, either through a dedicated locked thread on 2+2 or through a private discussion group of which the results would be made public. Our goal is to preserve as much transparency in these discussions as possible. We expect that the player community would delay their planned sit out if PokerStars is willing to defer the implementation of WC or any other VIP/Rake changes until negotiations are completed, effectively keeping the existing VIP structure in place until negotiations are finalized. Thanks for your consideration, Josh (JH1) Mazin (MSauce) Nick (TheMetetrown) Issac (starvingwriter82) Remember, in compliance with the Mod's request, please do not post in this thread unless it is to quote the allowed bump. Please continue all discussion on the main Sitout thread HERE and I will do my best to relay the main points here. |
Re: *** Mass Sitout - Pokerstars - Jan 1st - Details Thread ***
How long is this happening for?
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