Well, I guess he never actually said he lost the pot. It could have been a split pot. Otherwise, yeah, you're right, he really f'ed up.

I know we have spotty evidence. Let me just say that you guys saying these things have no experience with the pitbull hand history system. Basically you log into your account, and to to the hand history tab. It presents every hand you have ever played as a single link. You have to do a search or it only shows the hands older than a day. You then have to click a link to view a hand. Very often, it will time out before showing you the hand. When that happens, it clears your search and you have to resort the hands all over again. Sometimes it just randomly clears the search anyways and you have to try and figure out where you were looking before. Their site is very slow and it takes at least 5 seconds for the hand to load when the site is working properly.

Those of you bashing me, if you don't have experience on pitbull, you really have nothing of value to add to this thread. If you are just looking for a fight take it somewhere else.

Here are a few hands vs the same player that I played, after I began to suspect cheating and I wanted to test it.

In both hands I was in position and they were the blind.

I open 5 9 suited, flop was 2 3 7 rainbow or something. $30 pot. He donks $10, I raise to $40. He calls. Brick turn. $110 pot. He donks $10 again, I raise to $100, he calls. I river a 5, he checks, I check behind, and he shows A 10 or A J.

Next hand:

I open A 10 offsuit, miss flop. Hand plays out exactly the same, except this time he donks $10 again on the river. I call and he shows A J, and beats me with Ace high better kicker.

My fellow players experience similiar things. None of us every managed to beat these players in a signifigant pot except like in the 5 9 hand where I sucked out. It was suspicous enough that it should warrant a little effort by the site to prove the integrity of their games.

1000 hands of shorthanded limit holdem is plenty of evidence. That is tons of showdowns and would be plenty IMO.

Imagine if a real site like stars had a thread like this going. Stars would be in here with every hand ever played by the player and could give any stats anyone wanted on anything.

Another thought, if pitbull is truly incapable of getting these hands it means they are incapable of policing their own games. So if you are a colluder pitbull is the place to be.

I didn't lose the pot - How does the guy make the call?

Sorry to mislead you.

Further issues with pitbull:

-I have been dealt my cards face down on multiple occasions.
-I have been big blind 2 hands in a row in a three handed game
-ditto that for small blind
-pot limit calculator is incorrect
-(reportedly)an aquantance of mine was able to see his opponents cards during a hand
-cashouts can litteraly take 5 months!
-hand histories are practically useless making any analysis or cheating detection nearly impossible

If there was ever a site to be suspicous of it is pitbull. Everything about the site is shady.

Lol I was just looking through my hh's to try and find you guys something and I sorted by stakes. It shows me played every limit from 400/800 nl to .04/.08 nl. When I clicked on the 400/800nl it showed this blinds as 25/50. It was probably 2/5 as that was the highest I played except a handfull of hands at 5/10.

Now maybe you can see why we are asking for a little assistance from pitbull on this!

Rather clearly misleading earlier post:

I don't play on Pitbull so I can't say anything out of experience, but this thread seems "a bit" unreal.

@ OP what did you get the $20 for?

Peace
PokerWorker

Hehe looking through one of the 400/800 nl sessions vs the same player is shows the blinds being 25/50, 10/20, 15/30, and i didn't bother looking at the rest of them. Silly stuff.

They have a daily rake race. 1st and 2nd are 300 and 150. To get the points credited to you for that day you need to close tables before the contest ends. I was going by the lobby time and closed my tables at 5 minutes till. Unfortunately for me the lobby time was 15 minutes off and I got 2nd place. Support insists that this isn't possible and I am obviously a paranoid delusional. But dave threw me a $20 bone cuz he is nice, but I still think he is a cheater or works for cheaters.

Here is the chat with "support". Mainly for entertainment value. It still gives me a chuckle.

Please wait while we find an agent to assist you...
You have been connected to Derek ..
Derek .: Hello, Bryan! Welcome to Live Customer Support! How may I be of your assistance?
Bryan: hello, i got 2nd in the rake race that just ended 40 minutes ago
Bryan: but i should get 1st. i left my open tables at 11:58 according to the server
Bryan: but those points were credited to the next day, so i only got 2nd place
Derek .: im really sorry sir, we dont change this, the list is automatic by the system
Derek .: this wont change sir.
Bryan: yeah but the system made a mistake
Bryan: i played by the rules and a sofware glitch cost my $150
Derek .: im sorry sir this never happened
Bryan: what never happened?
Derek .: an issue about the list
Bryan: the server time was wrong, that is not my fault
Derek .: im sorry sir, but the server hasn't change anything
Bryan: what does that mean?
Derek .: you said the time was wrong
Bryan: i don't understand that sentence
Derek .: hasnt changed*
Bryan: yeah i was watching the time on the top left corner of the lobby and i left when it said it was about 2 minutes to the hour
Bryan: but then when i checked later my cashier said i left those tables at 4 minutes after the hour
Derek .: im really sorry sir but the system is working properly and you got the second place because you didn't get enough comp points.
Bryan: no the system is not working properly, everything about your software is messed up including the times
Bryan: sometimes i get my cards dealt face down to me, don't tell me your system works fine!
Derek .: this happends when a connection has a delays
Bryan: i was still playing at my tables, so my connection was fine
Derek .: I said delays not connection crashed sir
Bryan: well if i was still playing at my poker games, without delay, and your clock on your lobby was 6 minutes behind, how is that my fault?
Derek .: the time of the system is the same also for the list
Derek .: the fact that you have a diference with your clock is not our fault
Bryan: I WAS USING THE CLOCK IN THE POKER LOBBY
Derek .: you must use for all the site purposes the time of the site
Bryan: ON YOUR SOFTWARE
Bryan: I know that is why i was using YOUR time
Bryan: and that is why i am talking to you, if i was using the wrong time on my own computer i obviously wouldn't be complaining
Bryan: i am complaining because the poker software gave me the wrong time
Derek .: im sorry sir but you are claiming the 1st place, when you got the second is not possible we cant give you the 1st place
Bryan: are you just ignoring everything i just told you?
Derek .: no sir, i wont, but this doesnt mean that you can get the 1st is not possible.
Bryan: what is the reason?
Derek .: the site is working properly and there is no reason that why we should consider give you the 1st please
Bryan: the site is not working properly
Bryan: you have the buggiest software of any site in existence!
Derek .: Is there anything else I can assist you with at this time?
Bryan: you could respond to the things i am typing for one, instead of ignoring it, and acting like your site works properly
Bryan: or if you don't want to do that you could put me in contact with someone that can
Derek .: im not ignoring you,
Derek .: im talking with another players thru the chats
Bryan: yeah, but you are telling me your site works properly when anyone that plays on your site can tell you otherwise
Bryan: do you believe me when i say that your lobby clock was 6 minutes off?
Derek .: well as I told you can be even 1000 minutes off, but the list will use the current time
Bryan: so even if the poker site says it is a certain time, that is not really the official time?
Derek .: the official time of the site is the lobby's
Derek .: what im trying to say is that if the pokers clock shows a time 5 minutes off
Bryan: well that is the time i was using. Do you understand that is why i am complaining?
Derek .: this doesnt matter becuase the time in the site is the same
Bryan: i was using the lobby clock!
Derek .: for all the process
Derek .: yes I know you were using the lobbys clock
Bryan: the lobby clock told me it was 2 minutes to go
Derek .: but about the 5 minutes off,
Bryan: you just told me that the lobby time is the official time
Derek .: this wont affect you
Derek .: or is the site taking off 5 minutes once in while?
Bryan: no, normally it ticks 1 minute at a time like any normal clock
Derek .: since when?
Bryan: i was watching it count down so i didn't miss the time!
Bryan: well i am watching it right now and it is working
Bryan: it was changing once a minute earlier, but apparently the time was incorrect
Derek .: is weird becuase I have in here the clock of the site, and I NEVER had an issue like that
Bryan: well i don't know what to say to you, because that is what happened to me
Bryan: you have probably not had your cards deal face down either, or been dealt the big blind 2 hands in a row
Bryan: or the small blind 2 hands in a row either
Derek .: No one got this issue but you, so I dont think is a problem from the site, as I told you before Im really sorry but I cant give you the 1st place
Bryan: your site is a joke, i can't believe you guys try to license out this junk software
Derek .: Is there anything else I can assist you with at this time?
Bryan: did you know on your skin selling website they call it top of the line software?
Bryan: can i talk to someone with more authority than you?/
Derek .: im sorry sir for this issue not, they will say you the same thing, we wont give you the first place, I'm really sorry but there no issues
Bryan: how do you know they will say the same thing?
Derek .: actually did you see the site?
Derek .: did you take a look into the final list?
Bryan: yeah it says i got 2nd
Derek .: ok see the difference of comp points and tell me why you ask for the first place if the other player got more than you.
Derek .: It is not possible sir,
Bryan: lol you are funny
Derek .: im really sorry and good luck for the new list
Bryan: you are just making fun of me now
Bryan: nice
Derek .: im not sir, and I never said anything related about making fun of you sir. Never said anything
Bryan: you are either teasing me or don't speak english well enough to hold this conversation!
Bryan: to answer your question if it was a serious one...
Bryan: i am asking for the 1st pllace because i have like 300 points credited to today, that should be for yesterday, and i only lost by 90 points
Bryan: if your software clock had been working properly they would credited to yeserdays race
Bryan: furthermore, it doesn't even say anywhere on the site that you have to close the tables by the contest end time, i just assumed that was the case!
Bryan: technically the hands were played before the time so should count anyways, regardless of whether or not i closed the games
Derek .: you MUST close the tables to collect the comp points,
Derek .: if you played here time ago, is normally you know this process is not out fault
Derek .: you didnt close the tables on time
Bryan: it doesn't even say that, although i suspected it to be true, so that is why i was watching the lobby clock to close them
Derek .: im really sorry sir but please do not insist
Bryan: unfortunately for me the lobby gave me the incorrect time!
Derek .: no sir, the lobby DIDNT give you any incorrect time or minutes off.
Bryan: yes it did lol, i was watching it the whole time!
Derek .: if in the lobby says 11:59, the system will keep the time for the list 11:59
Derek .: is the same for the entire system,
Bryan: so you are calling me a liar then
Derek .: no is making clear how the clock works
Bryan: i know how the freakin clock works
Bryan: you look at it and it tells you what time it is
Derek .: look sir if I say anyhing and you just will play you as a victim dont try to waste your time,
Bryan: it told me the wrong time
Bryan: that is why i am complaining
Derek .: you got the second place because you got less comp points than 1st one thats all
Bryan: only because your software told me the wrong time!
Derek .: at 11:47am you got 4888.6 of the total comp points and at 12:04 you got 4930.6, the difference is of 42 comp points and the fist place won with 105.4 more comp points than you, now tell, me how you request the first place if you didn't get the enough comp points to beat him.
Derek .: im really sorry sir but as you can see the system is working fine and it always has been working good.
Derek .: Is there anything else I can assist you with at this time?
Bryan: right now i have 290 points for todays race and i didn't play anymore after i closed those games
Bryan: that was enough to win
Derek .: but you didnt close the tables by the moment the list ends
Bryan: because the system told me the wrong time! that is my complaint!
Bryan: are you saying it is my fault that the software told me the wrong time?
Derek .: no, I just said you didnt close the tables before the list was closed
Derek .: I never said anything about wrong time or related.
Bryan: and the reason is that the lobby told me the wrong time
Derek .: you said you didnt close the tables
Derek .: what you want me to do
Derek .: you didnt close them
Bryan: i want you to admit that the lobby told me the wrong time and accept that the site has some responsibility for an innacurate lobby time
Derek .: I cant admint anything if I have no evidence
Bryan: so you don't believe me basically
Derek .: and is not logic that the lobby has one time and the list closed in another time.
Derek .: is just not logic.
Bryan: well it isn't logic for a poker site to deal me my cards face down either, is it?
Bryan: it doesn't make sense for a poker site to not understand pot limit betting rules either
Bryan: no everything on pitbull makes sense my friend
Derek .: Is there anything else I can assist you with at this time?
Bryan: obviously not, have a nice day

Hi guys,

I was not planning on following up on this thread because I have given you the answers for your recurrent questions. However I wanted to touch base again and let you know that behind all these curtains of complaints, hunches, "chicken little" comments, and supposed suspicious play (if you should know, we give a $10 free every day... this brings a lot of fish and a lot of newbies that hardly play like others who have been pros for 7 years, so they are known to make calls, raises and even folds when you expect them the less), so you can provide me with the screen names, the table name, the date and time and the hand numbers and I will review them with our Fraud department and if we find cheaters (which we probably would have found by now) we will proceed accordingly and let you guys know.

As for the superusers subject... why would we? have you consider that? we are small site, not very big traffic... why would we even try to "profit" with superuser accounts when there is such little traffic? I mean, AP and UB would make sense because of the sum of money they were able to "drain" from the players (and not that we praise such practice, we actually felt pretty disgusted, but it makes sense that bigger companies have super user accounts rather than small ones), but in our case it would be counterproductive. Get your head out of the hole in the ground for a second and think about it.

I won't be chasing down your threads and posts about this subject anymore, you have your answers, I am terribly sorry they are not of your complete satisfaction but there is a point where we as a company have to draw the line and this is where we do it.

Thank you everyone.

Regards,

Dave Brenes
Network Manager
Pitbull Poker
Pitbull Partners

1000 hands is all we are asking for. Easy way to fix up your reputation!

Why would you cheat? You are more likely to cheat being a small company! A big company makes tons of money from the rake so cheating would be risking a lot to win a little. You guys are probably barely profitable and are probably barely solvent, considering that it takes you months to process cashouts. I'm assuming that means you are near broke in all your accounts and have to shuffle it around to process things. A little extra money here and there is probably necessary to keep the promotions going.

Seriously Dave, is it really too much for us to ask for the 1000 hands Rapala played where he claims to have never been called by a worse hand? I don't expect anyone to judge you guilty or innocent based on speculation, lets get the hard evidence out here and let it stand or fail on its own!

Here is what Rapala had to say in the "stay away from pitbull thread"

I've waited 6 months to give Dave a chance before making my suspicions public but he has done nothing so I feel I should now write this to warn people and also to ask if anyone has had a similar experience. I'm a LHE player with 4 years experience (check my previous posts for proof) and I've never experienced before the way a group of 4 players played. I played on 10/20 and there were a couple of regular players, some good, some bad, but 4 in particular never ever called me down with a worse hand. The first 500 odd hands I found very frustrating, but then I started getting suspicious and started actively looking for a single call down with a worse hand - it never happened over 500 hands which is totally bizarre in my mind esp in LHE.

So I then withdrew my remaining money which took 3 months and in November last year I requested my HH files from Dave so that I could analyse the hands and see any if there was some sort of proof of foul play. I'm sure a stat of 0% calldown with a worse hand over 1k hands is clear evidence of wrongdoing. Dave said no problem but the hands never arrived. I reminded him every 3 weeks or so but there was always an excuse, until 3 months ago when he stopped replying to my emails. ( I have requested over email 6 times in total)

I'm very hesitant about telling this story as I would hate to wrongfully accuse a site of cheating but I feel Dave has left me no choice. Dave if you are reading this and you no your site is clean, then you have the opportunity to make me look like a fool by sending me the hands and you also have my permission to upload them and link them here so that there is no chance of tampering from my side. Just so you know, I have saved a couple hands from the website so will be able to prove if there is any evidence of tampering on your side. (you can only get 1 hand at a time from the website and i dont have the time to get 1k hands at 30 seconds/hand)

If anyone has had similar experiences please post or pm me with suspected names. I dunno if its the done thing to post screen names here, if its ok then tell me and I will name the 4 players I suspect.

and

My mate was also playing there getting suspicious and toward the end of the last session tried to expose them. he had 93o and open raised. villain calls. board 55J. vilain cr mate, he call. turn is blank and my mate raise villain who 3 bets. river is 9 and villain now checks and mate checks too to see what he has. he has like 6 high.

This hand is possible from a good aggro opponent but this guy was insanely tight and never called down with worse.

Another time my friend raised suspect guy on every street with T high cos he was sick to death of the donking. somewhow suspect managed to donk every street despite the raises and flipped over A high on the river to win. I will get my mate to save this hand from the website later. Apart from these blatant ones it just felt like whenever u had a hand they check/fold and when u have A hi they often donk into u and when u call down it will very often be a hand they should be check calling like bottom pair. I honestly dont recall winning a sd against these 4 players and I wanted to see my HH files to check if my memory was correct but Dave is conveniently forgetting to do this... go figure. I will post these suspect hands later...

So there you go Dave, Rapala has given you permission to publicly upload these hands. If they are clean as judged by the educated audience of 2+2 I will drop these accusations. Man up and do it!

link to Rapala's post in the other thread:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...=#post11806924

Also I hate to say it my friend but the idea of having the security deparment review stuff is a joke. I doubt you even have a security department and considering that no one on your site seems to understand how pot limit betting works, I question the poker expertise of your team. Perhaps you could post the credentials of the staff on your security team?

Are you serious? This hand makes you think superuser? C'mon man.
Again, this hand indicates superuser?
imo, this is not even close to being a situation where any site needs to defend their integrity. All i see is bad play on your part.



So, your complaint is now about a possible bug in the software that may not be handling a dead blind correctly? How is this at all relevant to your claims of superusers?

Post the graphic or hand history. Make sure to include the hand before this one as well. But do you see what you are doing here? You are taking the word of a friend and presenting it as fact. If you have to use the word "reportedly", then this "evidence" is worthless.


5 months?? Is that right?

OK, as you wish I will stop posting in your thread. The reason is not because i don't feel qualified to. The reason is that you are an absolute fabricator of fact. I have heard of long cashouts, but i GUARANTEE that no cashout took 5 months. You even say cashoutS, as if this happened more than once. Your credibility is at absolute zero, and I won't waste any further time on you until you stop the BS, drama
exaggerations.

FWIW, I now do not believe it is possible that you are a long term winner. The plays above that you attribute to superusers are standard plays against fishies.

Hahahaha wowowow now that's some incredibly flawed logic! And a dismissive slam at the end to cap it off. Impressive.

from what i've read, im 100% convinced pitbull poker has super users and i would never ever play there

Hero has 2-5o -

Raises to $12. Gets 2 callers. Flop comes Jh-10s-10c
Hero bets $24. SB folds. Other player calls.
turn is Kc.

Hero checks. Other player checks.

If he had a super user account where he could see the hands, then, wouldnt it be best he made a bet here, and just take down the pot by himself instead of having to split the pot with u by calling your bluff on the river?

River is 8h.

Hero bets $75. Call.

Player 2 turns up 2-6.

There were three hands he could possibly beat.

Actually, there isnt one hand he can beat(he is playing the board) but there is many hands he can chop with.

Now, we can debate that I made a really poor play there, but you absolutely cannot call a $75 raise there without having something more than 6 high.

He didnt call a raise but only a bet.

I left the table and cashed out the $60 I had left in my account that night and never logged on again

If u started this hand with $160, u would have had $161.50 after the completion of this hand. Why was your cashout for only $60 then and not $161?

I would most likely not have played there anyway, but I will make sure not to ever play at Pitbull poker. There are too many weird stories coming out about them. Even if only the stories about withdrawal problems and poor CS is true, that would be reason enough not to play there.