Originally Posted by albedoa
It is really aggrivating to watch you accuse them of cheating without posting the full email history. You've obviously left out some important information.
Either do this the right way or don't even try.
OK here is my full correspondence with PBdave.
My email is xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and my screen name is xxxxxxx for that $20. Thanks again, I appreciate it.
If you go to the pitbull section section of the xxxxxxxxx forums you will find a thread titled "suspicious hands" where we are discussing what we believe to be cheating on your site.
xxxxx our manager has been trying to contact you guys about this for about a week or so and hasn't gotten any response so we have been getting a little concerned.
BTW my brother is a security expert with microsoft and is getting some friends of his to take a look at your software to see if there are any glaring holes in security of transmitting hole card data. I'll let you know what they say when they get around to it.
Our main concern as you will read in the thread stems from a player having seen his opponents cards during a hand. This proves that at least in some cases the hole card data is sent places it shouldn't be sent during a hand. If you guys could clarify exactly how you transmit that data it would do a lot to help our confidence in your site.
Thanks for your PM, I have credited the $20 for you already.
I understand what you mean, and I'd appreciate if you can send me the link to the thread so I can take look at it.
As for the problem in data transmission I can tell you that our software has been evaluated and certified by iTech Labs, something not possible if there was a a hole on the process.
Finally, provide xxxxx with my email in case he wants to send in any communication. I can help to make it reach the people here.
Here is the thread: xxxxx
As for Itech, I believe they only certify the randomness of the RNG? One of our xxxxx was able to see someone elses cards during a hand so clearly there is a problem.
If you could address this thread on the xxxxx forum we would really appreciate it.
Thanks again for the $20.
I understand your point, but I am not ignoring you. xxx has been in communication with us too. Calm down, I will look after your request to go to the xxx forum, I have on my list of pending tasks, I will get there. Be patient please.
That is a nice thing to say, but considering I sent you the link it is simply a matter of clicking it! That only takes a minute, and you can quickly get the drift of the thread. If you are too busy to read it let me sum things up for you in a concise manner:
1. We think that someone that owns or works for pitbull poker is cheating the players by using the ability to see our hole cards.
2. To investigate this further, we would like our hand histories sent to us in a useable format so that we can either confirm the cheating or to show that it is just our imagination.
I already opened an account at the forum. I will visit you guys and post there regarding this matter.
1. No, that's not the case, such accounts do not exist.
2. You can pull hands from the system, we cannot request hundreds of hands from different accounts from the DB, it's an overwhelming task for the system.
The problem with the hands system available to us is that it can't be systematically analyzed unless we sit there and manually enter them into a readable format that could be plugged in to a database. Surely you have some sort of back end database that could be queried? If you could just provide the raw data we could sort it out without too much trouble.
I appreciate that you do not believe such accounts to exist, but my experiences and those of others have us convinced we are being cheating. I have played full time for 7 years on countless sites and millions of hands and have never experienced anything like the play on pitbull, and the same is true of my fellow players.
As much as I understand your position, the hand history requests are made through the system we put available for the players on the game.
I do not "believe", I know there are not accounts like that.
I am starting to feel you and your group of friends are turning this into a witch hunt, and I simply will not take part of it. I know everyone went crazy with AP's scandal and thinking now that every time they "feel" something might be wrong it has to be a super user account, but it is not always the case. In fact, that was AP's and UB's case, and that's it. You cannot think every poker site you suspect of has the same problem.
I have played on at least 30 sites for 7 years. Never once have I suspected cheating, except on wpx when I was playing with colluders. I have faced patterns of play on your site that can only be explained by my opponent seeing the cards. At least 10 other players have reached the same conclusion independantly. All of us are very experienced and none of us have ever accused a site of this before. A few of us have won over 7 figures in our careers. We know a lot about this game! Your site can only be exhonerated by sending us complete hand histories which despite what you say I know is possible. Any competent programmer could come up with a way to convert the data into a sendable form. It simply has to be in a decent database format considering the quantity of hands that it must contain. Of course if any site does not have competent programmers it is pitbull, but still this should be doable. Trust me that it is in your best interest to do this if you are innocent as we are going to plaster this all over the web if we don't get our hand histories. Your site already has a horrible reputation as is clear from your support thread. Quite frankly if you don't have the ability to do anything with hand histories it means that you guys have no ability to investigate collusion or other forms of cheating. You mention the AP UB thing and all that has taught us is that we have to be on the lookout for cheaters because not all sites can be trusted. If you can't give us any futher hand history info you look guilty as can be and I can assure you the internet poker community will see it the same way. Myself and the others that suspect cheating have been members of this community for quite some time and our opinions and accounts of our experiences on your site will carry a lot of weight in the minds of our fellow players. Please see what you can do to get these histories. I can assure you if you get them and everything looks OK we will happily continue to play on and support your site throught he xxxx program, and encourage others to do so.
This absurd hunt is getting out of proportion. Your tone and threats are less than appreciated and we frankly have not done anything to you or your fellow players to deserve this sort of treatment, unfortunately you insist in believing you have the right to treat a poker room as you please and as you see fit. I do not doubt of your first hand experience playing poker but intuition is not a subject of interest for regulatory purposes.
You previously said:
“Any competent programmer could come up with a way to convert the data into a sendable form”
Even if it were as you think, our stored data is on an archive server, in fact on three, we simply don’t have the time and resources to spend on weeks of data mining to please demands coming from a personal hunch. You have access to your hand history through the site as any player, you may download the hands you want and need from there.
You also said “…it can't be systematically analyzed unless we sit there and manually enter them into a readable format that could be plugged in to a database”. The hands are in the format they are programmed to be displayed from the servers, that’s the only format we provide, you are in your right to request your hand history, but we have our right to decide what the format is to display as long as it is readable by the player.
Another one of your comments:
“Trust me that it is in your best interest to do this if you are innocent as we are going to plaster this all over the web if we don't get our hand histories.”
Another empty threat… honestly we find no interest to siege war against players over threats that lead no where. If you have a formal and real foundation to complaint about our company you should find the proper venues to do so.
“If you can't give us any further hand history info you look guilty as can be and I can assure you the internet poker community will see it the same way.”
Just because you say something doesn’t mean it is real. Guilty is a judgment one can only make when can prove such guiltiness; otherwise innocence is the natural state.
With all that said, I will not pursue this subject with you anymore as I have given you all the answers accordingly.
Fair enough. We obviously are gonna disagree on this. Lets take it to the forum so you can address everyone as I group.
there were a few messages regarding access to the private forum which aren't relevant so I didn't include them.
He promised a few days ago to post by the end of the day and he has been a no-show.
Here is the email exchange from the other player regarding hand history format:
Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 10:17 AM
To: 'Dave Brenes'
Subject: RE: PitbullPoker
Thanks for your reply. I understand your position of violating privacy if you sent me their hands. If you are able to send my hand histories then this would be appreciated. I know that I can see past hands on the website but using the site to quickly scan hands is slow and laborious so if you are able to send me a file with a couple hundred of my latest hands it would be great.
Thanks and regards
Sure, we can send you your hand history, please send me the specific dates you want to review so we can narrow down the specific range of hands you want to review. Cheers!
Phone: (514) 907.9324
And after 3 months of what assume is putting him off pbdave sent this:
From: Dave Brenes [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org]
Sent: 17 March 09 11:41 PM
Subject: Hand History
My deepest apologies but the DB Manager was never able to make room for your request since there was always something happening that prevented him to do it. The request is made, however we lost the DB manager and another programmer in less than a week, thus our organizational structure and the task load has been forced to be redistributed altering the course of requests and pending projects. I will give my absolute dedication to follow up on your request but I need to deal with an unexpected issue that is putting to wait all my tasks related to the IT department. I hope to give you more answer during the week. Cheers!
He can post more details if you need them when he sees this thread but I think that covers it well enough.