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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,153 34.76%
No 5,157 56.85%
Undecided 762 8.40%
Voters: 9072. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-23-2008, 10:44 PM   #126
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

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Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
Then find one, play it and do so quietly. If you know or suspect that one isn't don't play it. Quietly, I add again.

I don't go to Christian Discussion Forums to tell them that the bible is a book of fairy tales. I disagree with the business of religion so I just don't spend my money in churches.
That's a remarkable attitude. There are sites where a sufficient amount of data collected thus far demonstrates that it is probable that something fishy is going on, and your response (I presume) would be to say nothing? Is that correct?
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Old 07-23-2008, 10:45 PM   #127
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

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Originally Posted by questions View Post
There are sites where a sufficient amount of data collected thus far demonstrates that it is probable that something fishy is going on, ...
wat

Post links of retract this statement please because I believe it to be false.
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Old 07-23-2008, 10:46 PM   #128
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

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Originally Posted by s0crates View Post
Well, you might if there were a $10,000,000 Guaranteed World Championship of Ring Toss.
Nope. Not unless I paid a big fee to enter it. However, since I suspect that the game isn't on the up n' up, I wouldn't make it even to the quarter-finals.

There is a Hot Dog Eating Championship that the same guy keeps winning. Rigged, obv. But since I don't care too much about that activity either, I'm not looking forward to the inevitable hubbub which will surround its dirty little secret being exposed.
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Old 07-23-2008, 10:47 PM   #129
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

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wat

Post links of retract this statement please because I believe it to be false.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...d.php?t=251207

Is that what you mean?
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Old 07-23-2008, 10:50 PM   #130
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

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Originally Posted by Devilboy666 View Post
wat

Post links of retract this statement please because I believe it to be false.
If I was unclear, let me say that was my belief, and that's all my post represented - my belief (along with the subsequent post from the stickie in NVG). Your belief apparently diverges from mine. Welcome to the First Amendment.
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Old 07-23-2008, 10:52 PM   #131
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

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That link has nothing to do with rigged RNGs please try again.
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Old 07-23-2008, 10:53 PM   #132
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

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Welcome to the First Amendment.
This is not America and you don't have any rights here.
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Old 07-23-2008, 10:56 PM   #133
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

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That link has nothing to do with rigged RNGs please try again.
In my opinion, it supports the statement I made (to which you responded that I should retract my statement based upon the fact that you personally didn't believe it).

I do not believe Tilt has a rigged RNG, so that's not what I'm saying.
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Old 07-23-2008, 11:00 PM   #134
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

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This is not America and you don't have any rights here.
Not exactly. The fact that I'm posting here indicates that I do have at least one right: the right to post here. Other people who shared that same right but who have been banned no longer possess that right. No moderator or board authority has indicated to me even one time that my posts are violating the terms of service here, so I think you are incorrect on several points. Further, I have as many posts as you and have been a member longer than you. Not that I want to pull rank, but just saying. And you know that song, "Big Ten Inch"? They wrote that in honor of me.
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Old 07-23-2008, 11:01 PM   #135
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

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Originally Posted by Devilboy666 View Post
That link has nothing to do with rigged RNGs please try again.
Not to mention it is full of supporting data. Not suspicions based on people's "feelings."

If someone presented credible evidence here that the RNG's were off then I'd listen. That hasn't happened yet.

If I was convinced that one of the sites I play on was running a rigged game I wouldn't play there anymore.

Again, I use this example: I'm convinced that Jesus isn't coming back to save the world but I don't have proof, so I don't go around trying to convince people otherwise. It doesn't bug me that they think that either since it doesn't affect me too much.

Me thinking online poker isn't rigged doesn't affect you in the least, so why are you (guys) here trying to change my mind?
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Old 07-23-2008, 11:02 PM   #136
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

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Originally Posted by questions View Post
I do not believe Tilt has a rigged RNG, so that's not what I'm saying.
So what are you saying then? Do you think other sites have rigged RNGs? Do you have ANY type of proof of this?

If not please shut it until you can get us some.
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Old 07-23-2008, 11:10 PM   #137
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

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So what are you saying then? Do you think other sites have rigged RNGs?
I don't know that any RNG is rigged. I do have a basic understanding of how an RNG works, and since the formula employed to come up with a "random" number (which as we know is not random at all) varies from site to site, it's likely that different sites play hands out differently, and over time, players may be grasping at those differences to rationalize why they lose.
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Old 07-23-2008, 11:15 PM   #138
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

I don't understand why people decide to come to this site to unload their "it's rigged" nonsense. First of all, this site sees similar threads 1 brazillion times per day, so you are not going to bring anything new to our attention, unless you can provide statistical proof over millions of hands, that shows an irregular deal of hands. For someone that really wanted to prove this, it can be done fairly easily at Full Tilt, where datamining is allowed. Also, since the first amendament was mentioned... what about innocent until proven guilty? The big sites have never been proven to rig their number generator, yet others feel we have to prove its not rigged?

Second, the superusers were apart of the original setup of both UB and AP, while other big sites have come out to say that they never had such accounts setup, and we believe them. Just like we believe other companies IRL, until proven otherwise. When the electric company comes to your house to read the meter... do you assume they are adding a few dollars to your bill? Why not? It would be hard to detect since no one would notice and it would benefit them through more income.

obv. this is all imo
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Old 07-23-2008, 11:15 PM   #139
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devilboy666 View Post
So what are you saying then?
Quote:
Originally Posted by questions View Post
I am a troll with an agenda but that doesn't necessarily make it a good one.
Translated Your Post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice_W0lf View Post
When the electric company comes to your house to read the meter... do you assume they are adding a few dollars to your bill? Why not? It would be hard to detect since no one would notice and it would benefit them through more income.
They might, and I suspect that more people would be irate if they had a $10,000,000 World Series of Meter Readers.
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Old 07-23-2008, 11:23 PM   #140
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

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Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
Translated Your Post.

They might, and I suspect that more people would be irate if they had a $10,000,000 World Series of Meter Readers.
That would be electrifying!

crickets? oh..

*goes back to the beginners forum*
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Old 07-23-2008, 11:28 PM   #141
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

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That would be electrifying!

crickets? oh..

*goes back to the beginners forum*
thanks for stopping by!
(no sarcasm, btw)
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Old 07-23-2008, 11:47 PM   #142
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

If it is rigged in my favor, should I complain?

Full Tilt Poker $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 8 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

CO: $7.60
BTN: $5.25
SB: $1.90
Hero (BB): $5.00
UTG: $3.10
UTG+1: $6.45
MP1: $11.90
MP2: $0.70

Pre Flop: Hero is BB with Q Q
UTG calls $0.10, 4 folds, BTN raises to $0.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1, 1 fold, BTN raises to $2.50, Hero raises to $4, BTN raises to $5.25 all in, Hero calls $1 all in

Flop: ($10.15) 2 Q 5

Turn: ($10.15) 7

River: ($10.15) 4

Final Pot: $10.15
BTN shows Ad Ac (a pair of Aces)
Hero shows Qs Qc (three of a kind, Queens)
Hero wins $9.15



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Old 07-23-2008, 11:51 PM   #143
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

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Originally Posted by Baron Adams View Post
If it is rigged in my favor, should I complain?

Full Tilt Poker $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 8 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

CO: $7.60
BTN: $5.25
SB: $1.90
Hero (BB): $5.00
UTG: $3.10
UTG+1: $6.45
MP1: $11.90
MP2: $0.70

Pre Flop: Hero is BB with Q Q
UTG calls $0.10, 4 folds, BTN raises to $0.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1, 1 fold, BTN raises to $2.50, Hero raises to $4, BTN raises to $5.25 all in, Hero calls $1 all in

Flop: ($10.15) 2 Q 5

Turn: ($10.15) 7

River: ($10.15) 4

Final Pot: $10.15
BTN shows Ad Ac (a pair of Aces)
Hero shows Qs Qc (three of a kind, Queens)
Hero wins $9.15



You NEVER see stuff like that in casinos! I had a similar hand @ the Hard Rock last weekend where my AA lost to JJ AIPF and the villain flopped a set - but that just doesn't happen live w/Queens!
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Old 07-23-2008, 11:53 PM   #144
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

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Originally Posted by questions View Post
I do have a basic understanding of how an RNG works, and since the formula employed to come up with a "random" number (which as we know is not random at all)
No you clearly have no clue how an RNG works. They don't use pseudo-random number formulas. That's what your PC does, but that's not what a hardware RNG system does at all. They generate true random numbers using entropy from an external source (e.g. atmospheric conditions, alpha-decay or micro temperature fluctuations)
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Old 07-24-2008, 12:02 AM   #145
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

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Originally Posted by Devilboy666 View Post
I can do that. How much are we going to bet?
i bet your naive arse 1 million dollars that you cant prove that the ten biggest networks have legit RNGs. also, you are not allowed to assume that the RNG is the same for ring and tourneys. personally the only site i trust is the one that has a 3rd party randomly auditing their RNG. Pokerstars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
you've got this all wrong, buddy. there's a saying - "the burden of proof is on the accuser."
I couldnt disagree more. That attitude right there is why the poker sites are able to get away with it. the burden is on the poker rooms to prove to us that their RNGs are legit. so sick of all the 2p2ers sticking up for all the small sites even though there hasnt been a single analysis published. no one seems to care but me.
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Old 07-24-2008, 12:04 AM   #146
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

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Originally Posted by Devilboy666 View Post
No you clearly have no clue how an RNG works. They don't use pseudo-random number formulas. That's what your PC does, but that's not what a hardware RNG system does at all. They generate true random numbers using entropy from an external source (e.g. atmospheric conditions, alpha-decay or micro temperature fluctuations)
lol, you pretend to be an expert on everything, each site does it differently. surprised you didnt know this. and they arent truly random. thats impossible to do.
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Old 07-24-2008, 12:05 AM   #147
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

well i did pm ftp sean and he said he would forward my suggestion of a full explanation of there rng on there site and testing. Kinda a good thing and somewhat puzzling. Why does ftp need to be asked to do this when all the other poker sites do it already. Also, since this thread is laughed at and stars went thru the trouble and expense to audit there rng with 2 companies i have some ideas for stars. Dear pokerstars, since many don't care and think it doesn't matter i suggest these things for your site, stop posting anything about your rng, bounce checks, fire most of your support staff so emails can be answered with 48 hours, cancel the vip program...well i think my point has been made. Also, almost forget, have occasional software freezing, and have the site go down for hours at a time....this will not impact your customer base. As proof, ftp hasnt done anything on there rng and i have kermit tyhe frog telling me i have to audit them not an outside company. Seems logical to me, we need to terminate the oversight of the stock market etc as the new way is to investigate it yourself. Heck might as well fire police and fire dept do it yourself..we on the same page kermit
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Old 07-24-2008, 12:21 AM   #148
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

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Originally Posted by NoLimitLeagues View Post
i bet your naive arse 1 million dollars
betting $$ you don't have is pretty gay
Quote:
I couldnt disagree more. That attitude right there is why the poker sites are able to get away with it. the burden is on the poker rooms to prove to us that their RNGs are legit.
see, they don't have to prove it to me since I don't doubt it. and I don't have to prove it to you since I didn't accuse anyone of anything. I used this example before - I think it applies here (and even has some muckraking related references too!):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Markusgc View Post
Again, the point is, if someone thinks that there is an illegal/immoral act going on and I don't agree, then it's up to the accuser to convince others there's something to that belief, not the other way around.

Ever watch Law & Order? They convene the the Grand Jury to decide if there's reason to prosecute. But then the DA has to show why there's reason to go forward. If they can't, they don't. It has to do with the "innocent until proven guilty" premise. The judge works off that (stay with me...) idea. So when the Prosecution says "We think Cake is guilty of rigging the RNG [edited for topic]" The judge says, "Why do you think that?"

**** HERE'S THE TRICKY PART THAT YOU'RE HAVING TROUBLE WITH****

The DA does not say "Well, how about you tell me why you don't think that, Your Honor."

Ya see how this works? I said that I'm not convinced. What you're supposed to do is present more evidence to convince me. Not challenge me to explain why I don't believe you. I'm not convinced because I believe that Cake runs a legit operation ... If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't play there.

I also don't believe that my local grocery is putting extra beef knuckles in my ground chuck or that they don't put 10% donkey piss in my milk. I might be wrong about both of those things, but until someone gives me a reason to think otherwise, I'm going to keep shopping there, KNOWING FULL-WELL THAT IT IS RUN BY HUMANS AND THAT HUMANS ARE SOMETIMES DISHONEST. Maybe I'm naive, but I'm not going to start a farm OR stop eating either.
...ya know what? I don't and can't function in a state of mind where the place I make my living is just looking to screw me every chance they get the instant I stop looking over my shoulder. I know, I know - I'm just a babe in the woods when it comes to thinking that an organization run by people is happy with just making money hand over fist by NOT cheating its customers when it could make a little more in the short-term (while destroying its long-term) by stickin' it to them ...
You've mentioned some possible reasons why they might do such a thing - basically they all boil down to greed. I might take your Mom's purse because I'm greedy. But if it turns up missing, you better show some proof when the cops come by to take a report. You can't just say "I think Mark has it, and unless you explain why you don't agree that he took it, put him in jail."

Well, ya could say that, but I think you'd probably get some funny looks, and possibly (hopefully?) Maced in the eyes.
Quote:
so sick of all the 2p2ers sticking up for all the small sites even though there hasnt been a single analysis published. no one seems to care but me.
I'm not sticking up for anyone. But you really don't understand what "convincing" someone means. (And you are in the minority here in case you didn't know...). It's YOUR responsibility to tell me why I should take your side - if that's what you want, that is.

Really, if you want people to agree with you go to OnlinePokerIsRigged dot com Forums. If you want people to consider your evidence PRESENT SOME!!
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Old 07-24-2008, 12:23 AM   #149
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scorer View Post
well i did pm ftp sean and he said he would forward my suggestion of a full explanation of there rng on there site and testing. Kinda a good thing and somewhat puzzling. Why does ftp need to be asked to do this when all the other poker sites do it already. Also, since this thread is laughed at and stars went thru the trouble and expense to audit there rng with 2 companies i have some ideas for stars. Dear pokerstars, since many don't care and think it doesn't matter i suggest these things for your site, stop posting anything about your rng, bounce checks, fire most of your support staff so emails can be answered with 48 hours, cancel the vip program...well i think my point has been made. Also, almost forget, have occasional software freezing, and have the site go down for hours at a time....this will not impact your customer base. As proof, ftp hasnt done anything on there rng and i have kermit tyhe frog telling me i have to audit them not an outside company. Seems logical to me, we need to terminate the oversight of the stock market etc as the new way is to investigate it yourself. Heck might as well fire police and fire dept do it yourself..we on the same page kermit
dear sir:

paragraphs please. some grammar polishing wouldn't hurt, but I'm not gonna be too greedy.
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Old 07-24-2008, 12:25 AM   #150
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Re: Is Full Tilt rigged?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoLimitLeagues View Post
lol, you pretend to be an expert on everything, each site does it differently. surprised you didnt know this.
Every major site uses a hardware RNG. Stars even has links to the specific model they use (it uses entropy from micro temperature fluctuations) with extensive documented proof.

FTP also uses a well-known brand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoLimitLeagues View Post
and they arent truly random. thats impossible to do.
Where did you learn that? It's incorrect. Here's an online service with true random numbers for anyone that wants them: http://www.random.org/
and if you look up 'random number generator' on wikipedia you'll get more details on how true RNGs work.
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