Damn. I didn't think somebody would mention them...

You need to see everybody's hands. Don't let the fake news brainwash you.

We would need an independent regulatory body and auditor to remove any doubts about the fairness of the sites, but most of the time people who believe it's rigged just don't understand how volatile variance can be.

I went on a 25-50 buyin downswings and then on a 50 buyin upswings in a span of 4 hours regularly playing turbo STT SNG's and my ROI is 12% over 5k games even though i run like **** lol.

Do not underestimate the variance, study the game and keep playing the best you can.

Doesn't Cigital do that for Stars ?

It does, but i wouldn't call it exactly independent. they are pretty non-transparent about their workings.

What do you mean by non-transparent ? Should've they perform the tests live on CNN ? And even if they did, there would still be plenty of people screaming RIGGED!

And why aren't they independent ? They have no affiliation to Stars. If Stars were to be found rigged while under an approval/license/certification of the RNG by Cigital, they would be held accountable for this as well.

Yeah, something like that or close to it.

And how exactly would you know if they are affiliated or not? They could take bribes from stars to keep their mouth shut about possible illegalities of their operations for all we know.

Independent regulatory and auditory company would have to operate completely openly and transparently. You can't just believe with 100% certainty some writ that says everything is fair and legal now can you?

So, not only that the employees at Stars would've kept quiet about the rig all this time, but also the Cigital employees. And that would be multiple employees from Cigital, because they've certified the RNG a few times now and it is likely that different people were assigned to this task for each certification.

Even if they did the tests live on CNN, it still wouldn't matter. People would still say it's rigged. They'd suggest what you are suggesting, that they tested a fair RNG on telivision and then put the "JOKERSTARS" RNG back in usage.

And even if they did the tests live on CNN, only people that have an understanding of statistics, probability and programming would be able to understand what they're doing. I think you are aware that what Cigital did was to analyze millions upon millions of data from Pokerstars ( source code, hand histories etc. ). Imagine seeing Cigital specialists talking about standard deviations from the mean on television. Do you think that the average Joe would understand that ? Of course not. They would basically be waiting for the conclusion. And that would be the end of the show when the specialists say: "Random".

Would that put their mind at ease ? They didn't understand a thing they heard or saw, only the word at the end made some sense. And then they go back to playing, have their aces cracked by 6 7 of clubs and scream "RIGGED"! The live certification was a hoax!

Well, the best way around that is to combine riggie concerns. Let's add this guy's solution

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...ostcount=64986

to yours and as long as Lene Vestergaard Hau looks at the RnG while on CNN - then everyone will be happy.


That is of course until another riggie suggests that CNN and Lene took bribes...


All the best.

Obviously some people would never be convinced because they don't understand math and/or probabilities, others are just too stubborn in their own beliefs and would just dismiss everything they seen or heard, but it would still go a long way to clear this debacle and would probably even considerably improve the reputation and trust in online poker sites.

Not really since "CNN" would prove mathematically and analytically it's fair.

The shuffle is random. Tested and passed for all sites. Random shuffle. The problem is nothing is tested after the shuffle. There is no test to my knowledge if a site deals more aces or 3's, more flushes or 1 pair hands, more sets or more or anything or less of anything. The spade test just shows if the flop is flopped in the right percentage of cards but does not test on the actual hands made

Something being proven to be mathematically fair has no impact on a riggie. They simply say a version of "Fake News!" and move on to their next theory. Look at Grandpa Geezer's posts, like the one above this one, as an example.

Just search for my list of riggies I have posted here, look it over, and then ask yourself how many of them would care if anything was proven on CNN.

All the best.

Why would I believe anything CNN says?

You would not. That was my point, Grandpa, though perhaps that other person will better grasp it now after your doddering post.

All the best.

The spoon isn't real.

Don't believe what people say, breathing isn't necessary.

No one is complaining about the hole card distribution, every make shift site would pass this test i imagine. unfortunately thats all cigital tested for. If one tested all hole cards and board cards, flop, turn and river and how these outcomes relate to the game of poker the results would be laughable .

Actually it does.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

From my memory, isn't one of Citigal's biggest clients one of the branches of the U.S. armed forces or something like that? If Citigal taking bribes from PokerStars to lie about PokerStars's RNG being random is a real credible concern, then we actually have a lot worse to be concerned about.


EDIT:

If I am just completely remembering wrong, please let me know.

[Peter Griffin] How do you figure, sports fan? [/Peter Griffin]

Right, so I don't know why you suggested this:

The paranoid will remain paranoid if they wish to - no matter what they're shown, they can just cook up an even bigger conspiracy theory to keep their fears alive.

The point was that you just can't be sure mostly because they are not transparent enough which is understandable considering they are a security based company.

The paranoid will remain paranoid because that's just how their brain works, but most of the people who believe it's rigged just want to see proof with their own eyes, sort of like a math teacher proves to you that 2+2=4 for example. Cigital hadn't done that, they have only a document to show to the public. Who can be 100% sure based of a writ that they tested the RNG properly. You can't, because people didn't see them do it. That's why we need independent regulator and auditor who operates in a transparent manner.

A riggie literally posted that seeing it with his own eyes on CNN would mean nothing to him, contrary to your beliefs of their behavior. Odd that you continue to believe that riggies would ever change their views once they "see" something with their own eyes.

Then again, some people tried to start a poker room based on this. It was called Real Deal Poker - a room made for riggies by riggies that used a machine that handled the deal that riggies could see with their own eyes. Riggies were excited about this!

Within a few days riggies were claiming it was rigged and the site closed down due to a lack of business (riggies tend to have minimal funds, so are not the ideal target market).


Seriously, if the Pope and Stephen Hawking along with every "independent" testing agency were all together on every network proclaiming the deal was fair - that would not change the position of nearly every riggie. That is the backbone of how the riggie culture works, and you mock them by not appreciating how true to their faith they are as a group.

All the best.

Wouldn't know about that, but most likely they are legit, it's just that the manner in which they operate isn't best for guaranteeing that RNG is indeed completely fair and random.

Well, if that's the case it would pretty much render this whole thread worthless, but i think he was just referencing the fact that CNN was caught posting fake news.
Yeah, heard about the Real Deal Poker. I thought they closed down because the shuffle and deal method was to cumbersome for large scale operation. Had potential though.