Do you understand the difference between "can" and "are" ?

No one denies it is possible. It's also possible Obama is the manchurian candidate programmed since birth but I doubt it. Evidence could change my mind in both cases.

You asked for civil discussion. Great start there.

Negative...this was my point of the thread- "It's possible to do, therefore, it's worth looking into. Regulation and Taxing all the way! "

Then there's not much more to discuss here. I think we all agree it's possible to do and worth looking into.

I keep an eye on my own stats frequently, and haven't seen anything unusual, but if I do, I'll show what I've got to folks who are qualified to analyze my data, but probably privately first, before I go off making accusations.

If the people who I trust to make these determinations think there is an anomaly which doesn't look right then I'll make my data public.

Cliff's:
tk and Mark agree on these points:
Is it possible? Yep!
Should we keep an eye out? Definitely!

You Know I was asked to present facts. Again biased....What could be so bad about regulating OP? Im at a loss for words here now....

Thank you! again i'm not saying it's rigged...i'm saying it's possible and should be looked into is all! this thread wasn't meant to say that OP is rigged....

You know you're OP ITT, right?

I don't think anyone is against regulation, btw.

edit - I get it, "OP" means "Online Poker."

Most folks are favor of having some U.S. regulators for U.S. players. Just curious, which of these government agencies do you consider to be untrustworthy and illegitimate, and why?

Isle of Man Government, Gambling Control Commission. (PokerStars and others)

States of Alderney Government, Gambling Control Commission (FullTilt, Party, and others)

Mohawk Council of Kahnawake, Gaming Commission (Full Tilt and others)

I don't know about the last one, but the first two appear to take their jobs very seriously, and they devote considerable resources to ensuring fair games.

Also curious, which of these software auditing agencies do you consider untrustworthy and illegitimate, and why?

Cigital Inc. (Poker Stars)

BMM International (Poker Stars)

Technical Systems Testing (Full Tilt)

They look pretty legit too.

Should have included this one in my second list. Same question as above.

Gaming Associates Pty Ltd (works with all the jurisdictions listed above to do regular testing and monitoring)

you tell 'em, Alfred Einstein!

Check out this post from Golden Tee, it's by what I take to be their resident rigtard - he even refers to himself in the third person...
edit, pokgen2 is obviously GrinderR. Registered today and all his other posts are in the German Forum. He's persistent, I'll give him that!

GrinderR, do you and stephenmeares keep in touch?

Maybe you have information I don't.

Can you provide any links to citations or evidence please?


I don't think the British Channel Islands are known for money laundering, and I believe they have treaties in place with many countries to fight it, including the EU. Maybe you have them confused with some of the Caribbean islands that are actually known for this? Citations or evidence please.

You might want to look at them and their reputations before making a slanderous claim like that. The first two do projects for most of the largest governments in the world. Citations and evidence please?

Edit - work on your spelling and grammar too. Might make you more convincing.
.

I know that Joe Norton is an owner of Tokwiro/UB/AP and that they had a rogue employee who got caught cheating. They also may have been slow to take action, but ultimately did so. I'm not sure how this indicates the Gaming Commission is corrupt or that they would not do their regulatory job, particularly with other operators that they have no stake in. I'm also not sure how a cheating employee is related to rigged game sites. Perhaps you can elaborate. I'm not defending Kahnawake, I just want to follow the reasoning that leads to them being a corrupt regulatory agency.

Edit - they also hired Frank Catania, a respected attorney and former New Jersey gaming regulator, after they were bitten by scandal, to be their watchdog. Is he also corrupt?

I did some research and there is some historical truth to your claim, but it looks like they've made a lot of progress in recent years to fight it.

Holy Bizarro World!

Here's imagine!'s profile on the Golden Tee Forum.

If you look over his posts, he claims Golden Tee is rigged, that there are players who are "in the club," (same idea as "Golden Accounts") and complains that people are trying to silence him.

But he's fighting the good fight, 'til the bitter end!
The more I read, the more I'm convinced that there are rigged trolls going to any forum they can find and amusing themselves.

Yup

Already banned and deleted, kinda messes up the thread when I'm debating with posts no longer there, but with him it really doesn't matter either.

That's my fault.

I went over to their site to discuss the merits of their "audit".

Pretty sure it's the first time I've ever been banned


I might have been a little harsh when he tried to blame the crapiness of the report on 2+2. (See, 'cuz he "emailed 2+2" (I'm still not sure what that means) for help preparing the report and because 2+2 never got back to him, it's 2+2's fault the "audit" sucks).

Their site is now on lockdown, you need to be a registered user just to read the forums. I guess they're afraid of 2+2 goons coming over breaking things and spray painting rude words on the wall.

lol.

damn, son! you have any of it saved in cache or anything?

fwiw I'm still not banned on Golden Tee.

They also locked the video copy on youtube. Too embarrassing I guess.

Edit: and it looks like all the copies/links everywhere on the web now say this:




and a site that had a copy now shows:
This video does not exist. It either was deleted or flagged as innappropiate!


Looks like they are cleaning up fast everywhere.

Im not sure whats worse, the poster who starts a new rigged thread, or the ones that jump his **** complaining that someone started another one, yet the complainer's are all over everyone of these types of threads with multiple posts and constant bumping of them to top of the page. Good job Morons

Nice bump.

Yes, in case another rigtard turns up citing that audit as proof of anything:

I signed up over there to view the forums and they have closed the thread and removed the video. They also deleted the posts by River.

J Todd is pretty defensive about the whole thing.

so the reason their audit sucked is b/c no one helped them do it?

lol

I didn't really intend to revive this - Just having some fum with the Youtube image.

Please don't go over and poop on their forums! We're better than that!!


When I went over there, I reposted everything I had posted in the other rigged thread about the audit and added a couple new points. That what his first post ("You have actually picked a very bad time to dredge this all up again") is responding to.

His second post ("arrogant, cannibalistic type") is responding to my follow-up where I go off on him a bit for trying to shift the blame.

For the record, this is the post that got me banned (yeah, I mixed up Casinomeister and Wizard of Odds):



Wait, so your garbage audit is our fault? Or Casinomeister's?

Are you kidding?

You "sent an email to 2+2"? What does that even mean? You sent an email to the book publisher? I'm a moderator on the 2+2 forums. 2+2 is not one guy like this site seems to be, it's tens of thousands of people. You emailed 2+2? So, what, Mason, or the administrators had better things to get back to you about another rigtard thread? Are you serious? I can't imagine how many emails Mason gets from tiny poker sites hoping to ride his coattails.

If you want 2+2's input, you post in the forums. That's where 2+2 lives and breathes.

Except 2+2 gets a lot of rigtard threads, don't expect a warm welcome if your quality matches what you brought to this.


So, having acknowledge that your "audit" is a bunch of crap, why have you not rescinded it? Why have you not apologized to Full Tilt for slandering them? Why have you left that audit there to mislead the gullible, superstitious and clueless?

You are troll bait, sir. Any "predetermined opinion" I have is based entirely on your own work, on your own audit. And it is nothing but crap. Why is it still here, almost a year later when you know it is worthless? Why do you think a bad, misleading "audit" is better than no audit at all?

"Positive change" doesn't include humiliating yourself and pandering to the tin foil hat brigade. Are there rigged sites? Do people need to be careful? Yes. And 2+2 has been at the forefront of exposing them. But an audit like yours HELPS THE RIGGED SITES by muddying the waters. How many people saw your "audit" and decided to avoid Full Tilt (which is considered a reputable site even though their customer service is terrible) and then wound up on a shady site? Particularly Americans who don't have a lot of options as far as poker sites.

How many people did you drive into the arms of scammers?

The only way to fight ignorance is with knowledge.

What would you have everyone do, allow absurd statements to go unchallenged? When it comes to something like the APCW "audit" is that I'm not worried about people with an ounce of sense believing for it. Anyone with a functioning cerebral cortex who takes two minutes to look at the thing can tell that it's garbage.

On the other hand, the people who believe this stuff uncritically and the people who can't tell something like the "audit" is crap are the people I most want to be sitting at the online poker tables when I play! That is I have a huge vested interest in convincing the people who are dumb enough to swallow this crap that online poker is safe and secure because these people are very likely to be huge donators. But if they believe things like the "audit" or other unsubstantiated conspiracy theories they are that much less likely to play. Which is taking money out of my pockets.

The thing these rigtards don't understand is that if anyone ever managed to actually prove that Full Tilt is rigged it would be a huge story. It would be one of the biggest things to ever happen to online gaming, second only to the UIEGA. It would dwarf the AP and UB scandals. It might not make the mainstream news in a big way since after the 60 Minutes story the novelty is gone. However, in the industry it would be an atom bomb. It would be on the front page of every poker and gambling website in the world. It wouldn't be buried in the back of some obscure little website that nobody ever heard of.

It would be like if my neighbour, the UFO nut was actually able to turn up the UFO crash site he claims to have stumbled on while out hunting but has never been able to find again. But in the meantime, we all just assume it wasn't a crash site just a little too much Jack Daniels and we keep the kids away from his property.