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View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 3,087 34.74%
No 5,071 57.07%
Undecided 728 8.19%
Voters: 8886. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-18-2009, 05:44 PM   #5026
spadebidder
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
What exactly are you intending to disprove or prove with this analysis.

A large volume of HH is useless and unscientific.

What needs to be done are lots of smaller tests under the same circumstances, for example to study the "initial luck" or "boomswitch theory" and "cashout curse".
Those are real, no need to test them.
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Old 06-18-2009, 05:46 PM   #5027
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
Josem I agree most of these people are nuts. But I'm still curious if the code has been audited or if there's any outside evidence you can point to that the deck is shuffled pre-deal and never manipulated, other than taking Stars word on it.
Suzzer,

There are the links to the sites that I see have been posted - but a good way of verifying that this is truthful is to contact the regulator of the site concerned.

Also, as an aside (and this certainly doesn't mean to pick on you, Suzzer, but rather, more generally) because I work for PokerStars, I'd prefer to not dwell on the specifics of PokerStars - I don't want to derail this into a conversation about me or my employer. I've been a long-term believer in the integrity of online poker, and I think that the ideas discussed here are much more worthy if they're not personalised.
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Old 06-18-2009, 05:49 PM   #5028
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent View Post
My man, wtf are you talking about?

Did you miss this:
The average player (you and I) does not have the resources to obtain such "evidence". I've provided close to 150K hand histories of players runnning WAY under expected value but even I know that 150K is NOTHING.
The theory of "timing" also cannot be proven concretely.
But because we are not able to obtain such evidence, does that mean that these sites are not rigged? Do you really think that if these sites were rigged it would be so easy to be detected?? Come on..


Did you also miss the countless graphs I posted from POKERTRACKER???
AND YET YOU CONTINUE TO SAY THAT YOU HAVE DETECTED IT. Although you cannot "prove" anything with the limited data you have, you can at least illustrate what you have seen using your hand histories and then explain why it would be undetectable by pokertracker. Do it.
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Old 06-18-2009, 05:53 PM   #5029
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

[QUOTE=spadebidder;11334944]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent View Post


Ummm, no. Poker is a zero-sum game and the house charges you a fee to play it. Who wins and how much they win doesn't change the house earnings. The house would actually have maximum earnings if everyone always broke even and no one ever won. ducy?

You've shown you are pretty ignorant so I won't bother with more corrections.
It begs the question "What happens to Deposits"?

Where s the proof of the house only profits on rake?

What we see on a screen are just numbers?

How do we know that when we cashout we aren't taking money straight out of the site's pocket hence the cashout curse?
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Old 06-18-2009, 05:54 PM   #5030
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent View Post
Yes. From my personal experience and the comparison to countless others. Believe me when I tell you that i've spoken to hundreds of people who have experienced the same things. I've lost probably close to ten thousand of my own dollars on online poker (im a consistent winner live and am close to playing for a living). I've been on every single US site you could think of. The "patterns" we speak of are recognizable on every site. The "short-stack miracle", the set up hands in precise timing in accordance with account history/previous actions, the "initial deposit boost", etc. This is no coincidence....
Statistics, and randomness, are, I think, two of the most poorly understood subjects in our society, and it's poorly understood because truly understanding this stuff runs directly contrary to billions of years of evolution.

In short, our brains are hard wired to identify patterns quickly, and rely upon those judgements. If our forebears saw a lion running quickly towards us, they needed to very quickly identify it as a threat, plot a likely path of the lion, and get out of the way... and if they didn't identify this pattern, they'd die pretty quickly. Consequently, the only people alive today are the descendants of people who were good at identifying patterns.

However, this same pattern-finding ability in our brains is what messes things up. Precisely the same thing happens in poker - people see several similar hands in a row, and our natural pattern-finding habit kicks in... but this time, it isn't really there.

This is exacerbated by our mind only remembering those things that are notable.

Most people have a skewed perception of what is actually occurring at
the poker table. We tend to remember the bad beats, and forget the
times our best hand holds up, this means we think we are suffering a
much greater proportion of bad beats than we actually are. This is
simply how the human mind works, and is part of the reason why so many
players complain about their hands being outdrawn.

The truth is that your hands do stand up as often as they are meant
to, and this is entirely provable by a proper statistical analysis of your hand histories. Please provide them so that someone can do the statistical analysis that you seem unable to conduct.
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Old 06-18-2009, 05:54 PM   #5031
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by K13 View Post
PS is sending me my whole hand history. They said it will take a while. lol

I don't think my PT3 or HEM work, where can I plug these in?
Hi K13,

Still looking for your confirmation that you were wrong about the Aces coming on the flop.
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Old 06-18-2009, 05:58 PM   #5032
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Josem View Post
Hi K13,

Still looking for your confirmation that you were wrong about the Aces coming on the flop.
I meant the whole "board" but where is your proof, hard to scan thru all these pages.
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Old 06-18-2009, 05:59 PM   #5033
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent View Post
OK, LETS SET THE BAR ON "EVIDENCE"..
The average player (you and I) does not have the resources to obtain such "evidence". I've provided close to 150K hand histories of players runnning WAY under expected value but even I know that 150K is NOTHING.
The theory of "timing" also cannot be proven concretely.
But because we are not able to obtain such evidence, does that mean that these sites are not rigged? Do you really think that if these sites were rigged it would be so easy to be detected?? Come on..
+1

Try explaining that to the diehards qpw, Monteroy, Evidence Boy(KingofFelt) and Spadebidder.

I know almost know nothing about Computers or programming or advanced mathmatics but they never stopp screaming for me to get evidence.

Getting evidence just isn't a realistic possibility for your average OP player.
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:02 PM   #5034
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Bingo_Boy View Post
How many times do people have to tell you that nobody has said that there is no way it could be rigged. Are you stupid? There is absolutely no indication that anything dodgy is going on and all logical reasoning and analysis would suggest that it isn't. Do you have any argument other than:

Rigging is possible + Pokerstars like money = It is rigged
Rigging is possible+Gambling Businesses are only interested in making money+All the crazy suspicious things Ive seen whilst playing OP+OP has little or no REAL oversight=IT IS RIGGED.
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:04 PM   #5035
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
Those are real, no need to test them.
What are you intending to disprove or prove with your analysis exactly?
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:07 PM   #5036
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Re: DOES THE DOOM SWITCH EXIST?

Yes of course silly, havent you noticed? I did and I no longer play OP.
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:09 PM   #5037
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
+1

Try explaining that to the diehards qpw, Monteroy, Evidence Boy(KingofFelt) and Spadebidder.

I know almost know nothing about Computers or programming or advanced mathmatics but they never stopp screaming for me to get evidence.

Getting evidence just isn't a realistic possibility for your average OP player.
Fortunately there are a ton of players out there who are not average like you (well below average as you quit in disgust after losing for a while).

That is the beauty of databases and millions of people, combined you will always have a few freaks who will notice problems and actually prove it.

This is how some bots were caught. This is how some collusion is caught. This is how Josem helped catch the super users.

Nobody is suggesting that everybody has the skill to do this, and believe me, no one thinks you will ever have that skill. The fact that many out there do have it and use it (with results documented) is proof that it does exist.

For what it is worth, I would not have the patience to do the work either, but I trust those that do.

However, you cannot see past your own limitations so you base your world belief on what you or other average people can and will do. That aint the way it actually works

Anyway, no idea why you think it is all so difficult. After all, you did just post a single hand and declared that as proof. Your average guy research is paying off.

All the best.


P.S. my stud hand I posted in this a while ago is still much cooler :P
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:10 PM   #5038
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
+1

Try explaining that to the diehards qpw, Monteroy, Evidence Boy(KingofFelt) and Spadebidder.

I know almost know nothing about Computers or programming or advanced mathmatics but they never stopp screaming for me to get evidence.

Getting evidence just isn't a realistic possibility for your average OP player.
Fortunately there are a ton of players out there who are not average like you (ok, below average as you quit in disgust after losing for a while).

That is the beauty of databases and millions of people, combined you will always have a few freaks who will notice problems and actually prove it.

This is how some bots were caught. This is how some collusion is caught. This is how Josem helped catch the super users.

Nobody is suggesting that everybody has the skill to do this, and believe me, no one thinks you will ever have that skill. The fact that many out there do have it and use it (with results documented) is proof that it does exist.

For what it is worth, I would not have the patience to do the work either, but I trust those that do.

However, you cannot see past your own limitations so you base your world belief on what you or other average people can and will do. That aint the way it actually works

Anyway, no idea why you think it is all so difficult. After all, you did just post a single hand and declared that as proof. Your average guy research is paying off.

All the best.


P.S. my stud hand I posted in this a while ago is still much cooler :P
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:13 PM   #5039
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
Suzzer,

There are the links to the sites that I see have been posted - but a good way of verifying that this is truthful is to contact the regulator of the site concerned.

Also, as an aside (and this certainly doesn't mean to pick on you, Suzzer, but rather, more generally) because I work for PokerStars, I'd prefer to not dwell on the specifics of PokerStars - I don't want to derail this into a conversation about me or my employer. I've been a long-term believer in the integrity of online poker, and I think that the ideas discussed here are much more worthy if they're not personalised.
Ok well then let me list the reasons against rigging that we've discussed so far:

1) Any rigging would show up in a giant distribution analysis.
As I have said before I don't think we can just make this blanket statement and hold it as gospel w/o any math to back it up. It's possible certain kinds of rigging would leave such a small statistical foot print that it wouldn't show up. Or that tracks could be covered by the same system doing the rigging.

2) The Isle of Man gaming commission has certified PS.
I'm sure they are nice people, but I don't think you can say we should intrinsically trust a body like that, when we know they're counterpart in Canada (the KGC) is a bunch of hoodlums. I read this whole thing: http://www.gov.im/lib/docs/gambling/...rification.pdf . It basically just says they have to prove their RNG is random, nothing about code audits or any kind of 3rd party audit.

3) Poker Stars says they have a static deal that is never manipulated.
Again, probably true. But if you are investigating the possibility someone is pulling a shenanigan, their word is not really a valid point of evidence.

4) Nothing could be gained from such a rigging.
I think you could make a pretty good case that something could be gained by favoring certain players over another.

5) A rigging system would be too complicated and too easy to detect by anyone who worked on the system internally.
This along with the next thing are probably the best arguments.

6) It just wouldn't be worth the effort to set up and the risk of getting caught.
Yeah, almost certainly not.


It's just unsettling to me that the biggest argument against rigging going on is that it just wouldn't be worth it. I would sleep so much better at night if PS were constantly monitored by some big Euro equivalent of the Nevada Gaming Commission.
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:15 PM   #5040
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
I would sleep so much better at night if PS were constantly monitored by some big Euro equivalent of the NGC.
I completely agree. But every poker site shuts their doors when it comes to auditing. WHY IS THIS?
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:16 PM   #5041
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
Listen, I am just trying to think through all the logistics of creating a rigging system to favor certain categories of players. It's reasonable to think there could be motive for this from a business point of view. Although it's HIGHLY LIKELY that the complications of pulling it off, and the risks of getting caught would greatly outweigh any benefit, and ALMOST CERTAINLY preclude a reasonable company from trying it.

But I still think it's worth exploring. Please don't lump me in the with guys you are enjoying your ongoing pissing contest with. thx
I'm not.

I have spent time working out ways that OLP sites could screw their customers without getting caught.

But there's the rub!

If there is a way to do it without getting caught that implies that the method leaves no artifcats in the HH database.

And the thrust of a lot of the rigtards argument is that they have detected artifacts of rigging but they are so subtle that it's impossible to define them.

This is pure unadulterated bull****.
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:17 PM   #5042
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by Rounding4Rent View Post
Yes, in LIVE POKER. Maybe you should give it a try
Live poker?

Rigged as hell!

Wouldn't waste my money on it.
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:18 PM   #5043
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

If it wouldn't leave a footprint in statistical analysis, I doubt it'd leave a footprint in their profits.
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:21 PM   #5044
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by john.smith View Post
I suspect that if qpw hit his head against a brick wall he would continue to do it until the poker sites told him he could stop.
Oh dear.

Our new rigtard is trying to be clever but he just does not have the command of English to really pull it off.

What you should have said was: I suspect that if qpw was hitting his head against a brick wall he would continue to do it until the poker sites told him he could stop.

You see you were close but your lack of basic English grammar failed you.

Otherwise it would have been very slightly funny to your fellow rigtards.
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:22 PM   #5045
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by qpw View Post
I'm not.

I have spent time working out ways that OLP sites could screw their customers without getting caught.

But there's the rub!

If there is a way to do it without getting caught that implies that the method leaves no artifcats in the HH database.

And the thrust of a lot of the rigtards argument is that they have detected artifacts of rigging but they are so subtle that it's impossible to define them.

This is pure unadulterated bull****.
shill.

you still never answered my questions shill.
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:24 PM   #5046
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Re: DOES THE DOOM SWITCH EXIST?

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Originally Posted by notfoold View Post
It does when you suck at poker.
QFT.
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:24 PM   #5047
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Location: Pulling the tails of rigtards
This guy needs a life. foreal.
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:25 PM   #5048
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
I know who he is.

Im 100% sure that he's a paid Online Poker shill.

He won't say what he does for a living. He won't say where he supposedly plays poker(becasue he s paid to defend it, hence he knows it's rigged) or what limits. He won't post a hand he's played. He won't hear a bad word spoken about his beloved poker and if anyone does say anything bad or questions his beloved OP he's straight in with his incoherent responses and insults looking to turn a serious issue into a childish argument. In his mind (whether he really believs it or not) everyone quesioning is a rigtard(retarded) or an idiot. To me anyone who has absolute faith in OP is anidiot/nieve or is lying about their belief.
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:30 PM   #5049
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sinner
i dont believe online poker is rigged. i just have a sac.
no reason for FTP/PS to rig it. they make too much in rake. smaller sites tho, i wouldnt play on

Full Tilt Poker $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em - 8 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

UTG: $46.45
UTG+1: $83.80
MP1: $36.00
MP2: $343.10
CO: $200.00
BTN: $152.75
SB: $156.40
Hero (BB): $203.00

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is BB with A K
UTG calls $2, UTG+1 calls $2, 1 fold, MP2 raises to $12, 3 folds, Hero raises to $124, 2 folds, MP2 calls $112

Flop: ($253.00) K 7 Q (2 players)
Hero bets $79 all in, MP2 calls $79

Turn: ($411.00) 8 (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($411.00) 8 (2 players - 1 is all in)

Final Pot: $411.00
MP2 shows A 8 (three of a kind, Eights)
Hero shows A K (two pair, Kings and Eights)
MP2 wins $408.00
(Rake: $3.00)
worth a repost.

Last edited by Markusgc; 06-19-2009 at 10:35 AM. Reason: barely worth a repost, definitely not worth TWO reposts, so I combined 'em.
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:31 PM   #5050
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Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

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Originally Posted by SooperFish24 View Post
shill.

you still never answered my questions shill.
Actually I did answer a couple.

But as is usual with your type of dishonest, dishonourable, arsehole rigtard you simply ignored the response, waited a few days and then posted more of your crap.

Rather that repeat my answers (do a search), I'm going to ask you a couple of questions.

Where are you going with this?

If I answered, for example, Titan Poker, Limit Hold 'Em, 1/2, what would you say about it?

How would it help you and your idiot rigtards theories?
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