How was the FTP scandal fit the "rigged" discussion ?

The site wasn't rigged. It was just an example of some poor decisions by top management that in the respective environment ( considering the US government pretty much had a grudge to ban the top sites from the country ) led to their downfall.

Sure, it's disgraceful and stupid IMO what they did and it surely doesn't look well if an outsider's first experience with online poker is hearing about Black Friday. But it's far from rigging the games.

And in regards to regulation. What would that do ? Not to mention that the major sites are licensed and are regulated already. You and the most people that think it's rigged say that it's not and that's false.

Google the top sites ( as I assume that we're talking about sites like Stars, 888 , Party etc. ) and you'll be pretty surprised to find out that they do have a license/ are regulated.

The freaking U.S. army could regulate online poker, there would still be an ocean of people screaming rigged. They'll still be losers and most of them won't accept the fact that the game wasn't rigged before the U.S. army was regulating online poker and blame voodoo again for the fact that they lose. It's human nature.

Regulation doesn't guarantee 100% legit business. I spoke with some people that thought the FDA was God and that nothing gets past them. I assume you have google. Use it and research more about the FDA and the companies in the industries it regulates.

The FDA example is just to give you an example of the simple fact that no business can be expected to be 100% legit. There will be shady companies, there will be cheaters ( welcome to planet Earth ), but at the same time there will be more "good" ( good not in the sense of being Jesus on earth ) that offer legit services to its customers. Sooner or later, the shady companies die and secrets get exposed.

The reason why the online poker industry gets more stick and distrust is because of the misconception that is worldwide about the nature of the game. That it's pure gambling and some people associate gambling with crooks and therefore jump to the conclusions that online poker cannot be legit.

I mean in terms of shady business practice.

This will draw yawns and "'standards" and what not, but in the money 14/40 MTTs on Global, winning 4 of those, now on a 1/25 run (the one cash for $2.50) and had my money in good on 21 of those, honestly felt I was playing better than before. Oh, at the end of those first 40, I cashed out. I'm not 1/25 bad, had huge stacks early in at least half of those tourneys. Had decent numbers too back in the Stars days and Global competition sucks.

Whatever, I came out of a 6 year online retirement and ran 20 up to 650, and I'm not depositing another cent. And whether it's happening to me right now or not, it's a fact that it can be manipulated esp. on a shady site that won't even release tournament hand histories. You would think after all the superuser scandals people would admit that but no I'm wrapped in tin foil head to toe as I type.

FWIW I had and have full confidence in Stars technology and game integrity. Wake me up in six more years when Stars is opened up to everyone in the US.

Hard to argue against such a staggeringly huge sample size.

6 whole days this thread was quiet... it was back on page 3 for me and I show 50 threads per page IIRC...

ah well, no more

havent we had enough scandals with proof to anonimously say that online is in fact rigged

just as we have found live cheaters, there will always be a scumbag that will try to take advantage one way or the other

Given that in the context of this thread, rigged is referring to the RNG, no, we haven't.

And us shills are anonimous on that.

We get paid $5 per post to tell people it's not rigged.

Not sure if its rigged but after I signed up at Party poker , I played a tournament last night and I have never seen that many good cards before during 4-5 hours. I counted 24 pocket pairs from JJ to AA, I hit 11 set on the flop. When on a flush draw I always hit the card. Straight flush 1 time, Quads 1 time. Full house around 6 times.

Needless to say I shipped it after a short HU . I have played 1000+ tourneys online and this is the first time I run that good. Is it rigged ? Or just a coincidense ?

Definitely rigged. Everyone knows that hitting 11 sets in one tournament can´t happen, the maximum is 10.

All online sites outside of the legal US sites are rigged. That bastard dude and his family runs this dirty con business from the Isle of Man where there's no regulations against the RNG and all the stuff going on in that FoS site. The so called randomness of their RNG it deals cards to match people cards to create the most action on all streets just to collect as much fee as they can possible steal.

If you can play those dudes players in live games you'll be eating them all alive because we know what a deck of cards is and how cards on average break out. Not on Stars or 888 where the sucker is the King.

lol, they sold the site to Amaya 3 years ago.

How do cards break out on average ?

Do you crush live games for tons of money ?

manual shuffle all day heres why....yes rigged 100% fact.. USa included ...investigate it enough card shuffers at casinos use predetermined RNGS within their shufflers too.....you know when an algorithm is a predetermined mathematical formula so by definition there is no way it can be considered a random shuffle. A Random number generator..IS a pre-arranged mathematical formula...by calling it random is he merely the first lie "tip of the iceburg"....yeah that's sounds like the perfect scam. its about as random as getting 5 by adding 2+2=5? once you understand how it works. now enters the internet forum trolls, the shills to discredit any theory or even consider it.

No major site has used a PRNG for quite some time now. They use hardware RNG's or truly random number generators ( call them what you like ) that makes the numbers coming out of it random.

That's unless you have managed to crack how thermal noise or countless user mouse movements work to produce random numbers as those are two major sources used to ensure the unpredictability and randomness of the numbers that the TRNG produces. If you did, congratulations to you and I'm looking forward to seeing you on the nominees list for the Nobel Prize awards.

Anyways, 3! - 2! = 4.

Even when PRNGS were used it was plenty random enough for a fair game of poker. That isn't why TRNGS are better in this case. The reason is because it is sometimes possible to crack a poorly-designed PRNG seed and predict what it will do.

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You have offered no theory to consider. You have asserted that automatic shufflers rig the deal using 'a formula' but you haven't stated what that formula is or how the shuffler employs it.

In short, you've flapped your fingers on a keyboard for a while.

Be that as it may, he was suggesting that the sites are using PRNG's in these days, which in my knowledge at least for the major sites case, it's false.

Also, aren't the sources of entropy that I mentioned ( thermal noise, mouse movement ) unpredictable and uncrackable to the human mind ? AFAIK even if somebody were to stand in the room where these sources are used to create the random numbers, that somebody ( regardless of how smart he or she is ) won't be able to find patterns that would allow them to predict future cards. I could be wrong, but I'm looking forward to your reply.

This is why I said that TRNG's are better than PRNG's.

Yes of course that's true. I'm just pointing out that regardless of the other poster's beliefs, he is using an invalid argument to support them. Humans can't detect non-randomness in a PRNG with only their mind either. The worst one ever used commercially is likely better than hand shuffling.

I've watched a channel that was a little bit critical on hand shuffling in casino's. Well, he said that if you don't shuffle the deck enough times ( it differs depending on the way you shuffle the deck ), the order of the deck isn't exactly random.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxJubaijQbI&t=336s

If you're interested.

That's putting it very mildly. About 7-8 riffle shuffles are required; anything less than that, and the deck is decidedly non-random.
Online, shuffling is actually random, which is why people "don't like" it (being used to what they see in live).

Is there any software out there that can tell you roughly how fair your card distribution has been over a sample?

Search for the software forum. There won't be any program in which you introduce your sample and it will declare: "fair" or "unfair".

But there are programs in which you can introduce samples and those programs tell you how often you've won with a specific hand, how many flush draws you flopped and much and much more. You can then compare your results to the expected odds and see if the stats add up. They usually do.

Ask for help there in regards on how to use them.

Of course it is, Ive seen more action than I would see in a thousand games on the local casino, I hate them coolers so much