Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > Internet Poker > Internet Poker

Notices

Internet Poker Discussions of Internet poker venues.

View Poll Results: Is Online Poker Rigged?
Yes 2,849 34.68%
No 4,749 57.82%
Undecided 616 7.50%
Voters: 8214. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-02-2009, 03:35 PM   #3016
Pooh-Bah
 
Siegmund's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,087
Re: Bodog Players Only

If this is true, Bodog is about to get a whole lot of new customers. I've always won a LOT more there than on Stars
Siegmund is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2009, 04:23 PM   #3017
veteran
 
Username^^'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Reviewing hands in my dreams
Posts: 2,773
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

i feel the same on ipoker vs cake vs fulltilt ..
Username^^ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2009, 05:03 PM   #3018
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,472
Re: Bodog Players Only

Quote:
Originally Posted by repcorpus24 View Post
Maybe I am a rigtard but for those who are not you have no proof either.
You can't prove a negative.
otatop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2009, 07:02 PM   #3019
veteran
 
tk1133's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Making friends one post @ a time
Posts: 2,220
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

spade what poker site do you work for again?
tk1133 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2009, 07:23 PM   #3020
Pooh-Bah
 
Wiki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: [2,5]
Posts: 5,595
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
spade what poker site do you work for again?
This has to be about the lamest of your 'tactics' (I don't even like to dignify such a feeble ploy with the epithet: 'tactic').
Wiki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2009, 07:34 PM   #3021
Actually Shows Proof
 
spadebidder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: This looks interesting.
Posts: 7,903
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
spade what poker site do you work for again?
What post prompted that? I don't work in the poker business at all. Furthermore, after playing regularly close to a year (not counting some time on Party years ago), I'm a ~20% net loser in online tourney play, and I believe the game is honest. I'm up a little in online cash play, and I'm up in live play (mostly tourneys and I play in a league). But I blame my online tourney record on my own play, not on a nefarious doomswitch. I'm working on getting better rather than looking for excuses. I recognize that online plays different from live, and it is tougher to beat at similar stakes.
spadebidder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2009, 07:39 PM   #3022
veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,483
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
What post prompted that? I don't work in the poker business at all. Furthermore, after playing regularly close to a year (not counting some time on Party years ago), I'm a ~20% net loser in online tourney play, and I believe the game is honest. I'm up a little in online cash play, and I'm up in live play (mostly tourneys and I play in a league). But I blame my online tourney record on my own play, not on a nefarious doomswitch. I'm working on getting better rather than looking for excuses.

I am up 30-40 K, and i am sure that the games are not random.

For myself its proofed that they create action for higher rake, exspecially the blinds are hot online.

But who cares as long you can make money, anytime better than livetourneys with 40% RAKE (incl.travelling) like WSOP, EPT...
solucky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2009, 07:49 PM   #3023
Actually Shows Proof
 
spadebidder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: This looks interesting.
Posts: 7,903
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by solucky View Post
....i am sure that the games are not random
...
For myself its proofed that they create action for higher rake, exspecially the blinds are hot online.
We've seen some pretty convincing statistics lately that this isn't the case. One study showed that the flop cards come in the expected distribution when looking at ~175 million flops on major sites. Another analysis of about 102 million hands showed that preflop all-ins win at the amount they should, at all preflop equity ranges. There will be more coming, as there are a couple groups now studying billion+ hand databases they've accumulated.

Last edited by spadebidder; 05-02-2009 at 07:55 PM.
spadebidder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2009, 09:32 PM   #3024
centurion
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 118
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by spadebidder View Post
There will be more coming, as there are a couple groups now studying billion+ hand databases they've accumulated.
I would feel much more comfortable if I knew they were including folded hands in their sample size/study. I'm not sure if you ever answered that question. How are they viewing folded hands? Because of what we previously discussed, no sample size is big enough if they don't include folded hands in the equation. I'm not at all concerned about doom switches, that flops are not random, hole cards are not random, or that AA does not hold up what it statistically should overall. I'm simply concerned that I might be missing equity.
PeaceFr0g is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2009, 10:02 PM   #3025
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 8,472
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeaceFr0g View Post
I would feel much more comfortable if I knew they were including folded hands in their sample size/study. I'm not sure if you ever answered that question. How are they viewing folded hands? Because of what we previously discussed, no sample size is big enough if they don't include folded hands in the equation. I'm not at all concerned about doom switches, that flops are not random, hole cards are not random, or that AA does not hold up what it statistically should overall. I'm simply concerned that I might be missing equity.
The Cigital study got every cash hand played on Stars at 25NL and above for all of December 2008 with all the hole cards. They "only" got 100 million hands, but they had the complete hole card information for every player at the table for all the hands.
otatop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-02-2009, 10:07 PM   #3026
grinder
 
River Flush's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 691
Re: Bodog Players Only

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siegmund View Post
If this is true, Bodog is about to get a whole lot of new customers. I've always won a LOT more there than on Stars
sigh, bodog.
River Flush is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 02:47 AM   #3027
Actually Shows Proof
 
spadebidder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: This looks interesting.
Posts: 7,903
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeaceFr0g View Post
How are they viewing folded hands? Because of what we previously discussed, no sample size is big enough if they don't include folded hands in the equation.
I don't agree with that last statement. Nobody has all hole cards but the poker sites (and Cigital in that case, but those aren't public). The databases I speak of have only the cards that went to showdown, plus the community cards, plus the hole cards of the player gathering the data in some cases. However, with a large enough sample of hands that include 2 or more player's hole cards, you end up with enough hole cards to do some very useful analysis, including many queries that would show skew in the randomness of the deal.

Sure, there are some things you can't analyse with this kind of sample. But you don't have to see hole cards to prove that the community cards are random, or to prove that all-ins win at the expected rates. Both of those things have been analysed already in some large samples without any sign of rigging. And there's a lot more you can tell with this kind of samples.
spadebidder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 05:23 AM   #3028
qpw
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pulling the tails of rigtards
Posts: 4,019
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk1133 View Post
spade what poker site do you work for again?
tk1133, which court is hearing a child molesting case against you again?
qpw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 10:06 AM   #3029
adept
 
BitterChris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Bittertown, USA
Posts: 831
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

zOMG - it's RIGGED!!!!

... but in my favor, to the tune of +.16BB/all-in hand.





Regardless, I'm still not convinced, since this is pretty much the only thing that can be analyzed statistically and excludes other aspects of rigging, such as cold-decks, hole-card readers, board-card predictors, and other forms of cheating such as collusion or bots. Also, since I play tournaments almost exclusively online (to minimize the chances of collusion) whenever it really counts I can never seem to win a pot, such as on the money or FT bubble, or the hand that would put me among the chipleaders.

Although my local poker room has an automated shuffler that seems to deal out big pairs more often than is called for (shudder), I'd rather play there and make decent money.

- Bitterness is joy with a bad attitude
BitterChris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 10:10 AM   #3030
adept
 
BitterChris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Bittertown, USA
Posts: 831
Re: The great "Poker is rigged debate" - Collected threads edition

For some reason the images arent coming out above and I get a javascript error when I try to edit, so here they are...

http://yfrog.com/06bbgraphj

http://yfrog.com/06tgraphj
BitterChris is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:55 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive