Think has perfected the stalling method

This is incorrect. When you deposit money on Full Tilt, you're legally giving them control over it, with the understanding that they will give it back to you.

(Of course, what's "legal" in this case is arguable, since Full Tilt accepting your deposit in the first place is illegal if you live in the US.)

But bottom line, neither of these things is relevant here anyway, because they clearly don't have the ability to pay at the moment. Or else they would have.

They have the ability but it would probably kill the company off, so obv they want to keep it running so they are just stalling till they make enough to pay US players back

Your all criminals. poker stars is going to eat you alive when internet poker is legal and your name will be no better than ub/ap. its a shame, as ive always endorsed your company. the fact you have to raise capital to pay us is extremly alarming and speaks volumes of your business practice. i can assure you that i will not ever play on this site, even if you send me my money. your like the jp morgan of internet gaming....slithering snakes.

i could really use this money right now its putting a big strain on my life. im just sad and anxious all the time and i dont even know why me and so many others are in this ****ty ****ty situation

I feel ya. About time for some kind of an update I think.

Time to cut the crap and stalling FTP. The USA players deserve an honest and open update.

I've just been reading this thread from time to time and don't recall seeing this mentioned. I'm really not into conspiracy theories, but I was wondering...

Is there any chance FTP is strategically stalling in order to hold US player money as ransom or leverage in bargaining with the DOJ? Regardless of who is ultimately at fault, when all is said and done it's going to basically look like the actions of the DOJ caused a small percentage of US citizens to lose and be out $150M. And while that's a mere drop in the bucket when compared to banking and automaker industries, it's still a decent chunk of cabbage. Perhaps FTP is looking to cut a deal?

Sorry if this has been answered already. I didn't see it.

I am sure the DOJ can add more charges to Bitar & Lederer if they don't pay...

Theft is a good one... But in all honesty, they don't have the money, this is a poorly run company by shady people which is so obvious...

It's going to be funny when the FBI snatches them up in the middle of the night...

That ideas has been tossed around but I doubt it has any merit.
1) FTP is going to court and if they lose are facing up to $1B in damages. That would financially cripple the company. So any stall tactic makes about as much sense as re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

2) If FTP goes into bankruptcy I am 100% sure some smart law firm will organize to represent players who will to join as an unsecured creditor. At which point FTP no longer has a choice to pay players. Player likely will not recover 100% but they will recover as much as possible even if it means gutting FTP and selling the assets for pennies on the dollar in liquidation.

3) In the event of criminal malfeasance the board and operating executives can be held personally financially liable for any damages incurred as a result of the companies actions (such as players losing everything). While I doubt the owners have enough assets to make the players whole it would be enough to financially ruin ever single owner. Anything FTP can and does pay protects their owners from their own criminal actions.

4) As long as FTP doesn't pay players it affects their international business. If FTP wants to survive internationally they need continued deposits and continued rake.

No IMHO the simplest answer is the most accurate:
FTP hasn't paid US players because FTP CAN'T pay the US players. By recklessly co-mingling player deposits with operating funds they left all of it subject to freeze by court order. Without those frozen funds FTP doesn't have enough cash on hand to pay players and as a result won't.

I'm confused.

I just got a $1.00 payment from RakebackPros.

Given that I haven't played since April 17th, that seems a little odd.

Me too. Maybe it's some sort of test transaction?

I doubt so too. You seem knowledgeable, so just a couple of follow ups:

Although I'm convinced the DoJ wouldn't have gone this far if they didn't have a rock solid case, doesn't what they are rewarded depend on a jury/judge? IOW, just because they are asking for $1B, does it mean they will get it? Not sure how that works, but sounds like you might.

Can be, but does that mean they will? Doesn't the personal financial liability of its officers depend on how the company is set up (i.e. Inc., LTD., etc.). Also, under which jurisdiction would such a case be heard? The same one the DoJ is prosecuting under? Or some foreign court? The corporate wall has been known to be broken through here (Enron comes to mind). Not sure how penetrable it will be in some foreign court.

On an unrelated note, I'm curious about a couple of posters' comments on the chance that Lederer (or any other FT pro) could ever be indicted or convicted of wrong doing, or that they would ever actually see jail time. I personally think it's slim to none with slim being out of town. Everyone and their brother knows these guys own a piece of the actual rake operation, but as I understand it, they have positioned themselves as owning only the software rights. If there were any questions whatsoever about culpability, why wouldn't Lederer's ass have already been in jail and bailed out by now? I don't think these guys stand a chance of being indicted.

On a 2nd unrelated note: Do you think they (Lederer et.al.) deserve any of the blame for US player woes? I don't see how they could have done anything to prevent it, unless they had hands on involvement in day to day operations. Yet, people around here seem to be coming down pretty hard on old Howey.

Last question: Certainly they could pay something to US players today. If you owed me a dime and said, "Hey, I can't get it all to you now, but here's two hundred in the meantime", I'd happily take it (and think better of you as well). Is it just because this would look really, really, really bad to potential creditors/investors that FTP has not done this?

Thanks for seeming to be one of the few to get a credible, rational hypothesis from. Solid credible answers will probably remain hard to come by for awhile.

Well it's been nearly two weeks since the last update... not even the slightest of information has been released since then. I doubt any serious progress has been made but I'd still like them to come out and at least let us know that.

Is this Michelle lady still pretending to be some guy named Doug who is an official representative of FTP?

And 2p2 is allowing this lie to continue?

Really?

I now have it in my mind that my money has been stolen and I will never get it back. I don’t know whether the DOJ or FTP stole it, but FU to both parties. I'm out!

Maybe we should get together on this. Some here are shamelessly calling for people to shut up with all the negative publicity in hopes that FTP will succeed and do well so we can get our money. While others are getting pissed and cutting up any pro who decides to wear a patch that supports them.

We can't have it both ways. Either we want them to look like a viable company which means visibility of patches at the WSOP is a good thing, or we want the world to know that they're incompetent morons and potential thieves.

Well they may not get the $1B but that is what they are seeking. Really there are three outcomes.
a) FTP wins on all counts and DOJ complaint is dismissed. FTP seeks to have court order freezing the funds vacated (since basis for court order is to secure FTP ability to pay said judgement). FTP promptly pays US players in full, traffic hits new highs, and company remains hugely profitable.

b) FTP loses or cuts deal and pays less than $1B. How damaging this is to the company depends on how much the damages are. The good news is this would open door to new investors. Investor who may have been reluctant to invest in a company due to legal action can invest with more certainty. If FTP survives and if/when FTP pays US players would depend a large part on how much they end up paying.

c) FTP loses on all counts and suffers $1B judgement. IMHO FTP is finished at this point. DOJ would seek court order to seize the frozen bank account to pay judgement. If the bank accounts are insufficient to pay judgment in full (which they likely are) then DOJ would move to seize assets to ensure judgement is satisfied. Other creditors likely would sue and force FTP into bankruptcy in an attempt to ensure they are at least partially repaid.

If FTP loses of if so how much is really an unknown. Personally I doubt FTP can win on all charges. The other charges might be weak but the bank fraud charge is (despite opinions of some on 2+2) quite solid.


FTP is an LLC so owners are protected except in the case of criminal malfeasance that they were AWARE OF. Some owners may have been unaware of criminal activity at FTP but not all of them. As far a venue creditors could sue owners who live in the US, in the US. While FTP may be a foreign entity (and suing in foreign court would be difficult and costly) luckily many of the owners are not. I have no doubt if FTP loses lawsuit, the owners will be sued next in an attempt to pierce the corporate veil.

Very limited information available but criminal case seems unlikely looks like most of the pro took a "hands off" reproachful. However personal liability for criminal malfeasance of the company seems much more probable (see above). The burden of proof is much lower. If the pros were AWARE of criminal activity then they are personally liable. It seems at least probable that there is evidence of that (board minutes, witness willing to flip, etc).

On a 2nd unrelated note: Do you think they (Lederer et.al.) deserve any of the blame for US player woes? I don't see how they could have done anything to prevent it, unless they had hands on involvement in day to day operations. Yet, people around here seem to be coming down pretty hard on old Howey.


IMHO I doubt they can pay US players anything. Personally I think they couldn't even pay out international players if they all demanded cash at the same time. Remember the courts didn't just free FTP "US operation" they froze bank accounts in multiple countries. Hypothetical numbers to illustrate. Say FTP had $800M in player funds ($150M to US players, $650M internationally). Assume also they had about $50M more in operating accounts. Now when DOJ seized accounts lets say it was total of $500M. That would mean FTP has $350M in "cash". However foreign player deposits alone are $650M. Not only can they no "pay out" US players they can't even pay out international players. I will caution that is just a guess. We simply don't know how much FTP has in deposits and how much of that was frozen by the court order.

Idiot will probably post something in next 5 mins

I understand that this posting, at this point, will probably never be read. That being said, I have a few things to say that are quite contrary to what most of you are posting here. Yes, full tilt poker owes me money. No, it is NOT their fault I haven't received it. And here is a point by point reason why all of you whiners and complainers should be mad at the real culprit here, the DOJ.

A) First, let's start with a simplified example, ignoring all the complications of promotions, and ftps, and ironman points, etc. Say YOU (the reader) run a poker site, and have $10 million dollars in the bank, $5 million of which can be legitimately claimed by your users. Then the U.S. D.O.J. comes along and, without warning, and without a trial, seizes $7.5 million dollars. You are left with $2.5 million, with a need to raise capital in order to pay players back. Those $2.5 million are still needed to run the company in order to RAISE those funds, so they can't give that away, either. And whose fault is it that the money isn't there? The good ol' US of A. If you are wanting to compare it to pokerstars, don't worry, I'll get to that later.

B) Let's answer the argument of "They shouldn't have been doing something illegal in the first place." First, we have to establish that oft-forgotten fact that it is NOT ILLEGAL to mask your bank processes. Porn companies and other "personal nature" sites do it all the time, because it's allowed. The ONLY time it is NOT allowed is in order to hide illegal practices. But the online gambling laws don't apply to the poker sites, because poker is a game of skill. If they DID apply, the FBI would have pursued them directly for that, instead of needing to scrounge up all of these "laundering" charges.

In America, businesses are guaranteed all the same rights as individuals. In my mind, that means the constitutional right of a trial before punishment, and I don't think anyone here would argue that both FTP and it's users have been punished without a trial. It's unconstitutional, and wrong of our government to impede not only on our right to pursue happiness, but now also on our right to leave the burden of proof to the prosecutors, and the decision of guilt to a jury of our peers before punishment.

C) In response to the argument, "Well Pokerstars was able to do it, why not Full Tilt?" Well let's be honest here, regardless of which site you prefer, there is no argument that Full Tilt has the most advanced software in the online poker market, save (possibly) PKR.net. The graphics are better, the tournament windows instantly calculate and update the prizes for tournaments, even during registration... the only thing they really lack are the gimmicks like a built-in instant messenger, or uploadable avatars (which I hate anyway). They offer Rush Poker, two to three major promotions running at any given time, and much larger guaranteed tournaments than their competitors. All of that stuff requires them to set more of their money in reserve. They HAD the money to cover it, but the U.S. government froze a lot of it. Pokerstars, on the other hand, could afford to pay out because they DON'T set aside as much of their profit to give back to the players in promotions and guarantee tournaments. Every time I've used pokerstars, I've found myself looking through the tournament options and noticing once again how poorly they compare to Full Tilt's incredible selection and prize pools.

If/when Full Tilt Poker is available to U.S. players again, you can be sure they will have my repeat business. Yes, I really NEED the money they owe me, and until I get it, I AM going to complain. But not about Full Tilt. I'm going to complain about my government telling me they don't care what their people want. I'm going to complain about the DOJ ignoring the constitution, twisting laws around to suit their needs, and penalizing both a company AND millions of it's citizens for something that is arguably legal, and obviously desired to BE legal.

-Alan "shadowprophet99" DuMont

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Thanks for the good laugh.

I completely agree Michelle...errrr I mean Allan

Wrong! Over an hour, douche.

^^^ Great but no one really cares whos fault it is we dont have our money yet. We just want it, even a update annoucing another update from FTP Doug or the chick posing as FTP Doug would be nice at this point.

Not really an update but, from an ESPN.com chat going on right now:

"Marie (Buffalo)

Hi! I know you probably don't care about the issues with full tilt, but I was wondering if you've spoken to anyone about the issue?

Andrew Feldman (who is the poker reporter for ESPN)
(4:14 PM)

Why would I not care? I do! I've spoken to a number of people and unfortunately, there's no update. There's a major lack of communication, not only with the outside and their players, but internal as well. Still wait and see..."