Hi,

Has anyone done a rake comparison between Merge, Poker Stars, and Full Tilt?

Merge Rake:
http://www.carbonpoker.com/support/FAQ/rake.html

Poker Stars Rake:
http://www.pokerstars.eu/poker/room/rake/

What do you all think?

Do you think that Merge would be willing to reduce their rake in order to attract LMT holdem business. Even considering the rakeback, is it possible to beat that rake? I don't think that they can generate a consistent limit holdem clientele with that rake structure?

I would like to see the Merge Network grow and attract alot of players. They are in a good spot to do it. I just believe that the rake for LMT holdem players (playing at any level under $10/$20) is extremely high (much higher than other sites) and that a LMT holdem player would be giving up ALOT in rake to play at Merge compared to PS and FT and just about every other site.

I hope they reevaluate their rake structure for LMT holdem and if they did so, I'm sure that they would attract ALOT of LMT holdem players.

Keep in mind this is PER HAND. Can you imagine what a player is giving up by paying this extra money PER HAND!

Also keep in mind that the Merge Network rackback is Weighted Contributed, which is the least player friendly form of rackback and PokerStars and FullTilt use the Dealt method, which is the most player friendly rackback method.


One example:
LMT Holdem $2/$4: 6-Max/6 players:
Keep in mind, this is per hand.

Pot--- PS-- FT--Merge
$70 $3.00 $3.00 $3.00
$69 $2.00 $3.00 $3.00
$68 $2.00 $3.00 $3.00
$67 $2.00 $3.00 $3.00
$66 $2.00 $3.00 $3.00
$65 $2.00 $3.00 $3.00
$60 $2.00 $3.00 $3.00
$59 $2.00 $2.00 $2.95
$58 $2.00 $2.00 $2.90
$57 $2.00 $2.00 $2.85
$56 $2.00 $2.00 $2.80
$55 $2.00 $2.00 $2.75
$54 $2.00 $2.00 $2.70
$53 $2.00 $2.00 $2.65
$52 $2.00 $2.00 $2.60
$51 $2.00 $2.00 $2,55
$50 $2.00 $2.00 $2.50
$49 $2.00 $2.00 $2.45
$48 $2.00 $2.00 $2.40
$47 $2.00 $2.00 $2.35
$46 $2.00 $2.00 $2.30
$45 $2.00 $2.00 $2.25
$44 $2.00 $2.00 $2.20
$43 $2.00 $2.00 $2.15
$42 $2.00 $2.00 $2.10
$41 $2.00 $2.00 $2.05
$40 $2.00 $2.00 $2.00
$39 $1.00 $1.00 $1.95
$38 $1.00 $1.00 $1.90
$37 $1.00 $1.00 $1.85
$36 $1.00 $1.00 $1.80
$35 $1.00 $1.00 $1.75
$34 $1.00 $1.00 $1.70
$33 $1.00 $1.00 $1.65
$32 $1.00 $1.00 $1.60
$31 $1.00 $1.00 $1.55
$30 $1.00 $1.00 $1.50
$29 $1.00 $1.00 $1.45
$28 $1.00 $1.00 $1.40
$27 $1.00 $1.00 $1.35
$26 $1.00 $1.00 $1.30
$25 $1.00 $1.00 $1.25
$24 $1.00 $1.00 $1.20
$23 $1.00 $1.00 $1.15
$22 $1.00 $1.00 $1.10
$21 $1.00 $1.00 $1.05

I truly hope that the Merge Network become a very strong site and attracts ALOT of business, US and international, but in order to do so, I hope that they reconsider their LMT holdem rake structur3 and make it more in-line with the other sites.


_________________________________

"Happiness has little to do with the circumstances you find yourself in, but rather what your attitude is towards your circumstances."

I see up to 95% higher rake at Merge depending on pot size Don't think 35% rakeback is gonna make up for that. BTW, didn't you post this yesterday?

I did, but this time I included FullTilt in the comparison.



I truly hope they make their LMT Holdem rake structure more in-line with the other sites. If so, I'm sure that they would have an entirely new and extended pool of US and international LMT players that will continuously playing on their site!

Thank you,

P.S. I also appreciated what Merge is doing to keep the internet poker option alive and available for all!! Thank you.

Not only is the rake higher in the list you compiled, but it should also be noted (and more importantly imo) that ANY pot that sees the flop under $20 is raked at 5%, where at stars and FTP, they rake NOTHING.

So for a $19 pot at merge, you are getting raked .95, vs NOTHING at the other sites. Considering all the HU spots in 6max and other small pots under $20 that are won at stakes 3/6 and below, I think with this current structure it makes the games unbeatable.

Wow, I didn't consider that. I'll incorporate it in my next rake comparison post.

Thanks

Per your post, I added what the rake would be for pots under $20.

Thank you.


Keep in mind, this is per hand.

Pot--- PS-- FT--Merge
$70 $3.00 $3.00 $3.00
$69 $2.00 $3.00 $3.00
$68 $2.00 $3.00 $3.00
$67 $2.00 $3.00 $3.00
$66 $2.00 $3.00 $3.00
$65 $2.00 $3.00 $3.00
$60 $2.00 $3.00 $3.00
$59 $2.00 $2.00 $2.95
$58 $2.00 $2.00 $2.90
$57 $2.00 $2.00 $2.85
$56 $2.00 $2.00 $2.80
$55 $2.00 $2.00 $2.75
$54 $2.00 $2.00 $2.70
$53 $2.00 $2.00 $2.65
$52 $2.00 $2.00 $2.60
$51 $2.00 $2.00 $2.55
$50 $2.00 $2.00 $2.50
$49 $2.00 $2.00 $2.45
$48 $2.00 $2.00 $2.40
$47 $2.00 $2.00 $2.35
$46 $2.00 $2.00 $2.30
$45 $2.00 $2.00 $2.25
$44 $2.00 $2.00 $2.20
$43 $2.00 $2.00 $2.15
$42 $2.00 $2.00 $2.10
$41 $2.00 $2.00 $2.05
$40 $2.00 $2.00 $2.00
$39 $1.00 $1.00 $1.95
$38 $1.00 $1.00 $1.90
$37 $1.00 $1.00 $1.85
$36 $1.00 $1.00 $1.80
$35 $1.00 $1.00 $1.75
$34 $1.00 $1.00 $1.70
$33 $1.00 $1.00 $1.65
$32 $1.00 $1.00 $1.60
$31 $1.00 $1.00 $1.55
$30 $1.00 $1.00 $1.50
$29 $1.00 $1.00 $1.45
$28 $1.00 $1.00 $1.40
$27 $1.00 $1.00 $1.35
$26 $1.00 $1.00 $1.30
$25 $1.00 $1.00 $1.25
$24 $1.00 $1.00 $1.20
$23 $1.00 $1.00 $1.15
$22 $1.00 $1.00 $1.10
$21 $1.00 $1.00 $1.05
$20 $1.00 $1.00 $1.00

Also note the Merge Network rakes for pots under $20, the other sites don't.
$19 $0.00 $0.00 $0.95
$18 $0.00 $0.00 $0.90
$17 $0.00 $0.00 $0.85
$16 $0.00 $0.00 $0.80
$15 $0.00 $0.00 $0.75
$14 $0.00 $0.00 $0.70
$13 $0.00 $0.00 $0.65
$12 $0.00 $0.00 $0.60
$11 $0.00 $0.00 $0.55
$10 $0.00 $0.00 $0.50
$9 $0.00 $0.00 $0.45
$8 $0.00 $0.00 $0.40
$7 $0.00 $0.00 $0.35
$6 $0.00 $0.00 $0.30
$5 $0.00 $0.00 $0.25
$4 $0.00 $0.00 $0.20
$3 $0.00 $0.00 $0.15
$2 $0.00 $0.00 $0.10
$1 $0.00 $0.00 $0.05
$0 $0.00 $0.00 $0.00

All sites have a no flop, no drop policy.

This is per hand, as a previous poster stated, 35% rakeback won't make up for that.

As I previously mentioned, I hope the Merge Network reconsiders their LMT holdem rake structure inorder to grow their player pool (for both US and international LMT Holdem players).

Full tilt is also contributed in terms of rakeback. Only difference is FTP gives you full tilt points even when you don't contribute. Merge only gives you VIP points when you contribute. The difference is when you contribute you get 10 VIP points per dollar on Merge or 6.5 VIP per dollar as a rakeback player.

Good point. The Merge Network rackback is Weighted Contributed, which is the least player friendly form of rackback, whereas PokerStars and FullTilt use the Dealt method, which is the most player friendly rackback method.

Actually, I believe FT went to the weighted contributed method when they introduced their black card program. Not sure about stars.

Be that as it may, the difference in weighted contributed and dealt is much smaller than the difference in raking every pot under $20 5%, as well as the increased rake above $20. It really is a rake trap there for all limit games under 5/10. Maybe if we all bug them about restructuring their rake for limit games, we convince them that they will gain more traffic. There is a feedback/suggestions area i believe that we can let them know. It's definitely a long shot, but it couldn't hurt.

Otherwise as i've said before, i really don't think the lower stakes games are beatable given the rake trap.

wow I was thinkin about playing here but it looks like it'd just be a waste of time. Are there any LHE regs in merge that want to chime in? Any suggestions for other U.S. friendly rooms for LHE?

wtf are you talking , PS begins to rake micro at 0,20$ the pot!

True Poker or Doyles room seems to have a better limit holdem structure, and also dealt rakeback. I do not play limit myself, but here is the rake structure:

http://www.truepoker.com/how-to-play-poker/real-money/

I don't think there is a whole lot of limit action over there right now, but you guys could make some maybe. Rakeback is 27% dealt, and they are supposed to get new software soon, in about 2 weeks I think.

Lol Merge>true Poker(suck hard)

P.S: True Poker it's the only one i'm volontary busto(screw BR management)

Geez ****ing slow even in DoN's you play only 55 hands in avg. in 1 freaking hours!

late edit:And before i forget this moron Co. don't except Visa for the first deposit(WU or Moneygram only for Canada), screw you bastard! btw i was a prop there! cancel me ! meh!

I'm not saying its a perfect option.

It is an option, if the software is any good they bring out though, and speed improves. The rake seems better afaik for limit.

Sadly our choices suck at the moment.

only up to 0.10/0.20. From there on up, Merge structure is MUCH WORSE. Especially when you get in the 2/4-3/6 range, where as i stated above, Stars and tilt don't rake ANY pots that are less than $20. Even at 1/2, there will be a few hands at stars/tilt that see the flop and are taken down without any rake. This is not the case at Merge. And even at the micros you speak of, their max rake is far worse than tilt/stars.

Write them and ask them to be more competitive. You have nothing to lose. Limit players might be better served somewhere else if it doesn't change. There aren't that many tables going at limit as it is, and we already know why. I'm not sure Merge cares about limit players. Or maybe they just don't understand the issue.

What am I missing here; someone please explain.

POKERSTARS
Limit Number of Players Rake per Pot Max Rake
$0.02/$0.04 2-10 $0.01 for each $0.20 in Pot $0.04
$0.04/$0.08 2-10 $0.01 for each $0.20 in Pot $0.08
$0.05/$0.10 2-10 $0.01 for each $0.20 in Pot $0.10
$0.10/$0.20 2-10 $0.01 for each $0.20 in Pot $0.20
$0.25/$0.50 2-10 $0.05 for each $1.00 in Pot $0.40
$0.50/$1.00 2-10 $0.05 for each $1.00 in Pot $0.50
$1.00/$2.00 2-10 $0.25 for each $5.00 in Pot $1.00

You make an excellent point.


Merge Network rakes for pots under $20, the other sites don't.

Keep in mind, this is per hand (for pots under $20), using the $2/$4 LMT Holdem example from OP.

TALK ABOUT EXPENSIVE!

Pot--- PS-- FT--Merge

$19 $0.00 $0.00 $0.95
$18 $0.00 $0.00 $0.90
$17 $0.00 $0.00 $0.85
$16 $0.00 $0.00 $0.80
$15 $0.00 $0.00 $0.75
$14 $0.00 $0.00 $0.70
$13 $0.00 $0.00 $0.65
$12 $0.00 $0.00 $0.60
$11 $0.00 $0.00 $0.55
$10 $0.00 $0.00 $0.50
$9 $0.00 $0.00 $0.45
$8 $0.00 $0.00 $0.40
$7 $0.00 $0.00 $0.35
$6 $0.00 $0.00 $0.30
$5 $0.00 $0.00 $0.25
$4 $0.00 $0.00 $0.20
$3 $0.00 $0.00 $0.15
$2 $0.00 $0.00 $0.10
$1 $0.00 $0.00 $0.05
$0 $0.00 $0.00 $0.00

All sites have a no flop, no drop policy.

Merge has to change their rake structure, it just ain't right!
It's a terrible LMT Holdem Structure.

(Please see the first post in this thread for rake comparison of pots $20 and over.)

Poker Stars Rake Structure
http://www.pokerstars.com/poker/room/rake/

Stakes higher than $1.00/$2.00:

#Players---$20 Pot---$40 Pot---$70 Pot---Max Rake
2-3 -----$0.50---- $0.50----- $1.00
4-5 -----$1.00---- $1.00 ----- $2.00
6-10 ----$1.00---- $1.00 ---- $1.00 -------$3.00

I understand the concern with the rake. But on the flipside, their VIP program is different from Stars. Yes, you get raked a little more, but you accumulate points faster as well, since they rake every pot. Also, you only gets points based on how much you actually pay in rake. Not based on what the actual pot gets raked.

For example: If you fold and the pot gets to $20 and $1.50 gets raked (or however much it is) you don't get points for it since you didn't pay any of the rake. Yes, the rake is a little more, but it gets you to play and no auto fold like I've seen a lot of people do to get rake.

For example:
You win a $58 dollar pot, you're paying (giving up) an additional $0.90. It's costing you an extra $0.90 (over what you would pay at another site).

Then you win an $18 dollar pot, you're paying an additional $.90, (other site is $0.00). It's costing you an extra $0.90.

Can you imagine how much extra you're paying (how much less you are making) at the end of a session, at the end of the month....?

At the end of your month, back out ~$0.50 from every pot you won, see how well you do then.

You're gonna make that much less on every pot you win, (see the schedule below).

Their rakeback is not going to come close to evening things out.

Their LMT Holdem rake structure is insanely high.

See below:

Keep in mind, this is per hand.

Pot--- PS-- FT--Merge
$70 $3.00 $3.00 $3.00
$69 $2.00 $3.00 $3.00
$68 $2.00 $3.00 $3.00
$67 $2.00 $3.00 $3.00
$66 $2.00 $3.00 $3.00
$65 $2.00 $3.00 $3.00
$60 $2.00 $3.00 $3.00
$59 $2.00 $2.00 $2.95
$58 $2.00 $2.00 $2.90
$57 $2.00 $2.00 $2.85
$56 $2.00 $2.00 $2.80
$55 $2.00 $2.00 $2.75
$54 $2.00 $2.00 $2.70
$53 $2.00 $2.00 $2.65
$52 $2.00 $2.00 $2.60
$51 $2.00 $2.00 $2.55
$50 $2.00 $2.00 $2.50
$49 $2.00 $2.00 $2.45
$48 $2.00 $2.00 $2.40
$47 $2.00 $2.00 $2.35
$46 $2.00 $2.00 $2.30
$45 $2.00 $2.00 $2.25
$44 $2.00 $2.00 $2.20
$43 $2.00 $2.00 $2.15
$42 $2.00 $2.00 $2.10
$41 $2.00 $2.00 $2.05
$40 $2.00 $2.00 $2.00
$39 $1.00 $1.00 $1.95
$38 $1.00 $1.00 $1.90
$37 $1.00 $1.00 $1.85
$36 $1.00 $1.00 $1.80
$35 $1.00 $1.00 $1.75
$34 $1.00 $1.00 $1.70
$33 $1.00 $1.00 $1.65
$32 $1.00 $1.00 $1.60
$31 $1.00 $1.00 $1.55
$30 $1.00 $1.00 $1.50
$29 $1.00 $1.00 $1.45
$28 $1.00 $1.00 $1.40
$27 $1.00 $1.00 $1.35
$26 $1.00 $1.00 $1.30
$25 $1.00 $1.00 $1.25
$24 $1.00 $1.00 $1.20
$23 $1.00 $1.00 $1.15
$22 $1.00 $1.00 $1.10
$21 $1.00 $1.00 $1.05
$20 $1.00 $1.00 $1.00

Also note the Merge Network rakes for pots under $20, the other sites don't.
$19 $0.00 $0.00 $0.95
$18 $0.00 $0.00 $0.90
$17 $0.00 $0.00 $0.85
$16 $0.00 $0.00 $0.80
$15 $0.00 $0.00 $0.75
$14 $0.00 $0.00 $0.70
$13 $0.00 $0.00 $0.65
$12 $0.00 $0.00 $0.60
$11 $0.00 $0.00 $0.55
$10 $0.00 $0.00 $0.50
$9 $0.00 $0.00 $0.45
$8 $0.00 $0.00 $0.40
$7 $0.00 $0.00 $0.35
$6 $0.00 $0.00 $0.30
$5 $0.00 $0.00 $0.25
$4 $0.00 $0.00 $0.20
$3 $0.00 $0.00 $0.15
$2 $0.00 $0.00 $0.10
$1 $0.00 $0.00 $0.05
$0 $0.00 $0.00 $0.00

All sites have a no flop, no drop policy.

As I previously mentioned, I hope the Merge Network reconsiders their LMT holdem rake structure inorder to grow their player pool (for both US and international LMT Holdem players).

I certainly hope that something changes on all the sites. Since Black Friday there is hardly any games going at the 2-4 to 5-10 Full Ring Limit Games on Stars. Perhaps with a rake reduction or some type of promo they could begin to recruit some new regs to the game that have previously never tried Limit.
I'm surprised Pstars hasn't come up with something considering that this is an extremely profitable game for them with losing players losing much slower than in 6 max or Heads up and much slower than all NL or Omaha games.

DID YOU MISS THE TABLE JUST ABOVE THAT ONE? -- I always paid rake at PS micros. I didn't play at $1.00/$2.00 much but I never noticed no rake at any time. Why in the world would they do that -- how many times does the pot got to 10X in NL? ???

Stakes up to and including $1.00/$2.00
Limit Number of Players Rake per Pot Max Rake
$0.02/$0.04 2-10 $0.01 for each $0.20 in Pot $0.04
$0.04/$0.08 2-10 $0.01 for each $0.20 in Pot $0.08
$0.05/$0.10 2-10 $0.01 for each $0.20 in Pot $0.10
$0.10/$0.20 2-10 $0.01 for each $0.20 in Pot $0.20
$0.25/$0.50 2-10 $0.05 for each $1.00 in Pot $0.40
$0.50/$1.00 2-10 $0.05 for each $1.00 in Pot $0.50
$1.00/$2.00 2-10 $0.25 for each $5.00 in Pot $1.00


Stakes higher than $1.00/$2.00, up to and including $100/$200
Number of Players $20 Pot $40 Pot $70 Pot Max Rake
2-3 $0.50 $0.50 - $1.00
4-5 $1.00 $1.00 - $2.00
6-10 $1.00 $1.00 $1.00 $3.00

+1 rake kills lhe in general

Figure out how many pots you win in a month and deduct an average of $0.50 for each pot that you won (even for pots under $20). How much of a difference does that make? It's just not right for the Merge Network to have such an excessively high rake.

The Merge Network's rake structure for LMT Holdem isn't even close to the industry standard.




$ Pot-- Players------- PS--- FT--- MERGE

$70.00 - >=6 - - - - - 3.00 - 3.00 - $3.00
$69.00 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 3.00 - $3.00
$68.00 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 3.00 - $3.00
$67.00 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 3.00 - $3.00
$66.00 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 3.00 - $3.00
$65.00 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 3.00 - $3.00
$64.00 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 3.00 - $3.00
$63.00 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 3.00 - $3.00
$62.00 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 3.00 - $3.00
$61.00 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 3.00 - $3.00
$60.00 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 3.00 - $3.00
$59.50 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.98
$59.00 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.95
$58.50 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.93
$58.00 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.90
$57.50 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.88
$57.00 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.85
$56.50 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.83
$56.00 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.80
$55.50 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.78
$55.00 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.75
$54.50 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.73
$54.00 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.70
$53.50 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.68
$53.00 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.65
$52.50 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.63
$52.00 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.60
$51.50 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.58
$51.00 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.55
$50.50 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.53
$50.00 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.50
$49.50 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.48
$49.00 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.45
$48.50 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.43
$48.00 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.40
$47.50 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.38
$47.00 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.35
$46.50 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.33
$46.00 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.30
$45.50 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.28
$45.00 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.25
$44.50 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.23
$44.00 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.20
$43.50 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.18
$43.00 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.15
$42.50 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.13
$42.00 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.10
$41.50 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.08
$41.00 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.05
$40.50 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.03
$40.00 - >=6 - - - - - 2.00 - 2.00 - $2.00
$39.50 - >=6 - - - - - 1.00 - 1.00 - $1.98
$39.00 - >=6 - - - - - 1.00 - 1.00 - $1.95
$38.50 - >=6 - - - - - 1.00 - 1.00 - $1.93
$38.00 - >=6 - - - - - 1.00 - 1.00 - $1.90
$37.50 - >=6 - - - - - 1.00 - 1.00 - $1.88
$37.00 - >=6 - - - - - 1.00 - 1.00 - $1.85
$36.50 - >=6 - - - - - 1.00 - 1.00 - $1.83
$36.00 - >=6 - - - - - 1.00 - 1.00 - $1.80
$35.50 - >=6 - - - - - 1.00 - 1.00 - $1.78
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