You realize that all OP did was remove $30,000+ from the poker economy that could have gone to you or someone else, right? Do you really applaud a cheater who takes potential money away from you? Seems kind of dumb to me.

That's F'd up.

can you post graph?

I posted some of the botting software I have used as well as screenshots of the code, etc. but mods edited/deleted them so as to not encourage it or something.

To make my moral stance on this clear: I don't really believe I cheated in any meaningful way. (I understand that most of you will vehemently disagree with this) I never used information unavailable to all players, never shared hand histories, and never colluded. Most of the regs today play with an incredible amount of non-human assistance. Try separating a reg from his HUD, his flopzilla, his GTO 10bb tourney stack handbook, etc. The only "human" thing they do is physically click the button that all of this assistance indicates is the best to click.

On a more general level, I believe that understanding and coding bots will, in the end, probably end up being more beneficial to society as a whole than people sitting online, clicking buttons, and preying on people with unhealthy addictions. The amount of intelligence, knowledge, and novelty that are generated from *good* botters translate very well to a lot of productive careers. I have personally seen botters immerse themselves in unfamiliar, cutting-edge fields like ML in an effort to better understand how to make a machine learn from experience (I personally have not taken this route). There just isn't really a more reliable way to test if what you think will work actually works other than to have a huge sample size of playing data against other people playing the game seriously.

In regard to your last question, I don't really have any strong opinions on the person one way or another. I am not sure if I would consider that a morally acceptable behavior.

The difference between the tools non-cheating players use and the ones you use is that one group is considered cheating. You cheated at online poker, at least be honest with yourself about it.

don't believe for a second you didn't mine hands, you said you coded to incorporate hud stat adjustments.

Also if you know any other bots, can you out them.

Also post graph.

OP, could you tell us more about bot collusion. I do think that is the bigger evil by far. How much more work is needed? What is the process of card sharing in real time between the bots? Realistically at the moment what is the biggest stake a bot could be profitable at for both PLO and NL 6max? In your opinion, how long would it take for bots/ai to be able to beat the highest stakes?

OP, you seem intelligent, well written etc.

How many other botters do you know/have contact details/screenames etc?

Oh snap, didn’t you say that you used to be a reg yourself? What about the money you have supposedly earned from those people with unhealthy addictions? Your such a tool.

This should be treated with an equal respect and probably moved to the BBV. The only purpose of this thread seems to be stroking OP’s ego. I am sure you will find an appropriate jerk off crowd there.

Nothing the op has written suggests he mines HHs. In post #1 he writes this: This doesn't imply mined HHs. It means the OP used his own & then later the bot's own HHs to identify individual player tendencies & then got the bot to actively modify it's actions to suit a particular villain's stats.

Yes, I applaud op. He took full advantage of a broken, edit: non existent security system at wpn, and now he's rubbing it in their faces. I find that very funny. As for the money stolen, that's the risk you take with playing online poker. The real disgrace should lie with the network who turns a blind eye, not the person smart enough to take advantage.

OP, did you ever play 500k hands in a similar time period? I do see the logic where you point out it's only another extension of many other multi-tabling software benefits, but, FWIW, your morality argument has several holes, especially on a network with such lucrative volume rewards.

lol no strong opinions?

not trying to compare botting to robbing a bank, but your moral compass might be a little off.

OP, don't you empathize with those your bots won money from?

Not wagging my finger at you, I'm just asking from a journalistic approach. I'd really like to know.

well I was about to give you the benefit of the doubt but your response here confirms my suspicions that you are a sociopath. After ripping off many people who played honestly you come in here not to really help but just to rub peoples noses in it. You could have actually come away from this looking like a hero but instead you just crawl back into the sewers with the other snakes that have stolen from the community. don't worry though, I am sure the 2+2 detectives are already trying to figure out who you are and then maybe some people will get justice.

WPN hasn't allowed mining for some time. You can't just open a table and start saving hand histories without sitting. I suppose I could have configured the bot to just screen scrape for data or something, but when I started, my initial priority was to see if I can get the bot to work well and play well. By the time the bot was sophisticated enough, I already had a good pool of hand histories and didn't really want to waste time designing a system solely for mining.
I'm not posting any personally identifiable info. My graph has some notable, and I'm sure unique, downswings and upswings. You have to realize that multiple players probably have 6-figure hand histories on me and it wouldn't be all too difficult to piece together an identity through some mutual cooperation. Everything that I've been willing post in terms of details and screenshots, I have already posted. Most of it has been deleted or edited out by the mods; I am not risking any chance of outing myself, sorry.

I am actually not very familiar with bot collusion networks. From time to time, I would see posts or irc messages concerning some foreign network or another, but most of the time those messages were about troubleshooting and technical help, not recruitment. My understanding is that such networks generally have their own private, and heavily guarded channels. Bots will create logs in realtime: for example if the bot has AA preflop, there would be log output line indicating that. The next step would be sharing that info via a private network (maybe irc bots? maybe through a server? maybe a more direct approach?) and having an additional mechanism for each bot to be able to read the info as well as send the info on a hand by hand basis. There wouldn't be any need to share post-flop information since the bot could just read it off the table itself and presumably some shared code would tip it off on what the other bots in the game will do based on their hole cards, board, and current pot/player state. The far greater challenge would be masking the collusion so as to not make it obvious, and that would take a lot of time. The barrier to creating a colluding network is trust. You would have to find people who are extremely trustworthy, but also similarly competent and careful. That isn't easy. A workaround might to be just multiaccount across different skins of the same network or even the same site using personal info of people you know. You would have to configure some VMs and I guess set up a bunch of VPNs on each of those VMs, or have an entirely dedicated hardware setup. Again, doable but a significant financial and time commitment.
I would think that if a good poker player and coder spent a year or so, he could probably create a bot to beat the highest stakes of NL, but probably not as successful shorthanded or HU. Predictability and consistency are what a bot needs and in shorthanded games at the highest stakes where players are making rapid adjustments on a orbit by orbit basis isn't the most hospitable environment for a bot. Most good botters,like me, prefer to stick around limits where there are hundreds of players and dozens of tables to chose from. This allows a bit of anonymity and also, a lot of opponents are going to be multitabling and seldom deviating from long-term trends. It's much easier to grind out steady profit here than in a high-takes game where there are maybe 2 running tables, 10 regs, and insane competition. Grinding 100-50nl requires only 1500-2k of "working capital" in an account at a time, reloading/withdrawing as necessary. Playing highers stakes would probably require 5-10k in the account each session and it would suck to lose all of that at once due to confiscation or something.

I have contact with a few botters. I was more active in different communities when I first started out since I had a lot more questions and often needed troubleshooting help. Now I mostly offer advice or help to noobs and don't really chat with/e-mail established botters unless something major happened on one of the sites. Good, careful botters will not out their screen names or playing profile so I can't really link a lot of my contacts to specific identifies across different poker sites. From time to time, I will see a couple of players' stats on PT that I suspect are running some default profiles or ****ty purchased profiles, but they don't usually last for more than 10-20k hands.

Not particularly, I spent ton of time and effort--probably more than most of those players--on analyzing gameplay, hand histories, etc. Nothing I made was "free money". I risked the same amount per hand as everyone else and I put in a lot of hours to develop and optimize the bot and its playing capacity. Yes, my efforts were directed differently than a lot of other poker players', but nothing about creating a *good* bot is easier than working to become a good poker player.

+1
Bot collusion is indeed a very important question. How rampant is bot collusion on these bot friendly sites in ur opinion?

If I want to catch a suspected colluder bot, would the fact that consistently running over EV for pretty much ever be a good indicator of it being a colluding bot? Or its redline?

In a more general way, how can we, as players, detect bots more efficiently than just playing a guessing game looking at random stats?

Sent from my GT-I9500 using 2+2 Forums

OP you are seriously ****ed if you think putting in hours programming a bot is the same as hours as a real person at a table. People make mistakes during the course of play due to various reasons, bots only make mistakes when they are programmed wrong. You could leave a bot running for 24/7 and it will play the same way regardless of how much time it has played can you say the same for a human? There is a reason botting is not allowed and that is because it is cheating so you can go **** yourself.

From your previous posts, I knew you were an idiot. I didnt know you were a complete POS as well. Awesome.

What's your evidence for this, rather than assuming that most sites are just incompetent at bot detection?

is your bot rule based or some kind of self learning neuronal network?

This guy is being fairly open (within limits) of the botting community, and that is somewhat refreshing to read. While I kind of get the deep moral indignation hurled by some posters (which is a bit counterproductive when trying to get more information), the botter dude has a bit of a point when he says that it is a lot of preparation and using tools to exploit those who are less informed - and how is that much different than hard core HUD users hitting soft players.

The key to that obviously is the network/room it is on. As he said - Stars is one of the few that is proactive in hunting bots, and while the "Amaya sucks" torch crowd will be unhappy to see that, that is a fairly important distinction. If a network like WPN basically allows bots (despite having "rules" saying they do not tolerate them), then the root of the problem is the network, not the actual botters. Sure, they are technically "breaking" rules, but if that network has no means nor inclination to enforce the rules then the rules themselves are fairly meaningless.

Hurling bile at the botters is fine and good, but the real problem are the networks that actively encourage them or quietly allow them to do what they do. Until pressure is put on the networks in that regard they will have no reason to do much, because as this botter dude accurately says - the bots generate rake while they are the easiest customers to deal with, because they never complain.

I would ask the OP if WPN ever gave him any heat, and/or if he heard of WPN ever going after any botters.

For what it is worth, I obviously do not believe the OP quit because he had some sort of epiphany on botting. If he could make 30K again in 6 months with no real risk then he would do it, as would likely a lot of the people yelling at him in this thread if they had that ability. However, I don't overly care what his real reasons for ending the botting are (assuming that is true), as his information on the botting community itself is of the most value.

What exactly is your post about??

Sounds like your trying to recruit way more than anything else.

That was my first question but my real question is rhetorical and directed at 2+2; do you wonder why no one good or credible posts on this site anymore? Seriously do you actually monitor anything at all?

God I hope not. The opportunity to cheat is always there. Giving this guy some sort of pass because it is hard work silly as hell. I like to imagine people don't cheat because they have some dignity and respect for the game and others. If the only reason people don't cheat is because they are too stupid too, well good I guess.


OP you really are a big time cheater. Not knowing so is very delusional.

bolded part is extremely stupid, 2nd part is likely true but srs high horse bud