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Old 04-23-2010, 09:34 AM   #1
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Betfair Anonymous Proxy in HU Limit

Considering HU limit is a solved game. ( For anyone who isn't aware you can use a bot or computer program to play Heads LIMIT poker much the same way a computer can play chess and it is impossible /extremely hard to beat). All other forms of no limit poker are too complicated especially Heads up No LIMIT, as far as I know, and certainly at high stakes.

Anyway, Considering this, is it good idea for Betfair to allow players to play from an anonymous proxy ? (This is where one computer connects to another computer (betfair) via another computer which doesn't disclose the location of the first computer.

A 'semi legitimate' reason would be if you are in a country that prohibits internet poker or betfair does not accept customers from.

Either way Should betfair allow you to connect via this method ? It would be even more suspect on 6 max table.

I'm sure other sites allow it too but it just seems like you can see it on betfair.

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Old 04-23-2010, 09:36 AM   #2
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Re: Betfair Anonoymous Proxy in HU Limit

So you are saying a bot heads up hold'em is like playing a bot in chess?

How so? Why not just play like the bot and be millionair overnight.
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Old 04-23-2010, 11:30 AM   #3
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Re: Betfair Anonoymous Proxy in HU Limit

You seem to be assuming that the listed location is based on IP rather than what you put in to the details of your account. Certainly your screenshot seems to agree with this, but I've otherwise always assumed the opposite. You should email Betfair to find out. In any case, it's up to Betfair to make sure that people are who they say they are regardless of whether they are using a proxy or not.

Also, please provide a reference for HU limit being "solved".
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Old 04-23-2010, 12:43 PM   #4
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Re: Betfair Anonoymous Proxy in HU Limit

I can't see the problem here.

So what if the player is connecting via an anonymous proxy? He'll still need to jump through all the verification hoops before he can cash out.

And what's so special about a proxy from the point of view of AI? What would someone running a bot gain from having his true IP address hidden? It's not as if the sites can have people who the detect using bots prosecuted.
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Old 04-23-2010, 01:11 PM   #5
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Re: Betfair Anonoymous Proxy in HU Limit

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Originally Posted by mustmuck View Post
Also, please provide a reference for HU limit being "solved".
Polaris poker bot

Not sure what difference the anonymous proxy would make tbh.
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Old 04-23-2010, 01:22 PM   #6
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Re: Betfair Anonoymous Proxy in HU Limit

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I meant to say other than Polaris somehow managing to lose to Laak (tongue in cheek here, I have noting against Phil). Making a bot that can play poker is pretty far from solving the game. However, OP probably just misspoke to be begin with. We can certainly agree that bots are currently more of a worry in HU limit than elsewhere.
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Old 04-23-2010, 01:45 PM   #7
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Re: Betfair Anonoymous Proxy in HU Limit

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Originally Posted by mustmuck View Post
I meant to say other than Polaris somehow managing to lose to Laak (tongue in cheek here, I have noting against Phil). Making a bot that can play poker is pretty far from solving the game. However, OP probably just misspoke to be begin with. We can certainly agree that bots are currently more of a worry in HU limit than elsewhere.
I don't want to drag the debate into a discussion on Stox but:

Bryce Paradis is regarded as one of the best HU limit players ever and I know that Bryce helped improve the bot, and 2nd time around they got true experts to play it. (As opposed to TV stars), and I think they broke even, I haven't read the link below yet.

http://www.stoxpoker.com/mvm/man_vs_machine_media.html

I don't play limit at all, I just saw this browsing the lobby. And I remember a while back there was potential problems with bots at the very highest stakes.

I'm not implicating anyone in cheating and I have the highest regard for Bryce I'm just referencing the existence on HU limit bots.

Last edited by dwayman; 04-23-2010 at 01:53 PM.
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Old 04-23-2010, 01:51 PM   #8
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Re: Betfair Anonoymous Proxy in HU Limit

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Originally Posted by mustmuck View Post
You seem to be assuming that the listed location is based on IP rather than what you put in to the details of your account. Certainly your screenshot seems to agree with this, but I've otherwise always assumed the opposite. You should email Betfair to find out. In any case, it's up to Betfair to make sure that people are who they say they are regardless of whether they are using a proxy or not.

Also, please provide a reference for HU limit being "solved".
The main issue I have is that you can sit so easily using a proxy, which seems to be the easiest way to multi account. if you use 2 internet connections at least you would see they are in the same city / country.

I'm sure the player was legit and the use of a proxy was for good reason but I though I'd point it out and keep the sites on there toes.
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Old 04-23-2010, 01:52 PM   #9
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Re: Betfair Anonoymous Proxy in HU Limit

codingthewheel.com ended up being primarily a limit bot as well.
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Old 04-23-2010, 01:54 PM   #10
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Re: Betfair Anonoymous Proxy in HU Limit

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Originally Posted by dwayman View Post
....A 'semi legitimate' reason would be if you are in a country that prohibits internet poker or betfair does not accept customers from.

Either way Should betfair allow you to connect via this method ? ... [/IMG]
Please do not make an issue out of this. So many of us in Europe and possibly even US (on other sites obviously) could find ourselfs in this situation one day. Last thing we need is any kind of pressure from users to cut our last possible lifeline if worst happens.

Bots will get there anyway we wont.

Last edited by Rebel inc.; 04-23-2010 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 04-23-2010, 01:57 PM   #11
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Re: Betfair Anonoymous Proxy in HU Limit

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Originally Posted by Wiki View Post
I can't see the problem here.

So what if the player is connecting via an anonymous proxy? He'll still need to jump through all the verification hoops before he can cash out.

And what's so special about a proxy from the point of view of AI? What would someone running a bot gain from having his true IP address hidden? It's not as if the sites can have people who the detect using bots prosecuted.
If you ran a bot and could connect using anon proxies you could use the bot on different accounts from different locations. You could probably do it anyway undetected some other way but this looks to easy. I'm not a networking expert just speculating.

The main issue I have is that you can sit so easily using a proxy, which seems to be the easiest way to multi account at the same table, if you use 2 internet connections at least you would see they are in the same city / country. Would you be happy to play at a table where the other 5 players were all on proxies ?

I'm sure the player was legit and the use of a proxy was for good reason but I though I'd point it out and keep the sites on there toes.
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Old 04-23-2010, 02:03 PM   #12
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Re: Betfair Anonoymous Proxy in HU Limit

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Originally Posted by Rebel inc. View Post
Please do not make an issue out of this. So many of us in Europe and possibly even US (on another sites obviously) could find ourselfs in this situation one day. Last thing we need is any kind of pressure from users to cut our last possible lifeline if worst happens.

Bots will get there anyway we wont.
I don't mean to be cutting anyones lifelines, but open discussion is the best way to protect the games in the long run, and sites knowing potential leaks will be discussed causes them to work hard to secure the games.
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Old 04-23-2010, 02:05 PM   #13
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Re: Betfair Anonoymous Proxy in HU Limit

Look no serious cheaters are as easily detected. Its easy to set up rooms full of colluders where everyone comes from different city. All you need is servers running in different countries which takes a day to set up.

I would assume with all the stolen indentities setting up account is just as easy.

What you stumble upon is players who cant get there any other way and possibly some lonely not so smart colluder who is gonna get cought anyway.

Sites on the other hand catch colluders by analyzing the games and judging by job offers have quite a lot of people working on this.

EDIT just my take on it not trying to troll or discourage you to report if you think something fishy is going on, far from it actually.

Last edited by Rebel inc.; 04-23-2010 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 04-23-2010, 02:52 PM   #14
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Re: Betfair Anonoymous Proxy in HU Limit

someone should buy-in for minimum, sit in and decline to post his BB, sit out. then sit in again and repeat this process couple times to see how that player would react. i believe there was thread where someone cought bot with this method.
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Old 04-23-2010, 02:54 PM   #15
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Re: Betfair Anonoymous Proxy in HU Limit

not a bot, he has played on fair for ages and sometimes talks in chat.
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Old 04-23-2010, 02:57 PM   #16
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Re: Betfair Anonoymous Proxy in HU Limit

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not a bot, he has played on fair for ages and sometimes talks in chat.
oh hi there, we can lock this thread - he has played for ages and sometimes talks in chat. confirmed not bot.
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Old 04-23-2010, 03:12 PM   #17
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Re: Betfair Anonoymous Proxy in HU Limit

Damn it people!

1) Nobody has accused whoever that is of being a bot

2) Nobody has shown that the location information is based on IP rather than what the user enters. Has nobody played on Betfair while out of their home country?

3) If it is based on IP, it just means the person is using a known proxy. Technically any computer could act as a proxy and Betfair would never know.

4) Betfair have to independently verify the identity of the account holder, the IP can't be trusted as above.

5) A bot being able to beat a subset of people doesn't mean a game is solved.

6) As I understand it, Bots are indeed a worry in HU limit

7) If Betfair do actually identify location by IP and have recognised the IP as an anonymous proxy I see no reason why they'd allow it other than that they just haven't considered not allowing it. There could be some legitimate reasons, such as fooling an ISP with draconian rules.
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Old 04-23-2010, 03:26 PM   #18
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Re: Betfair Anonoymous Proxy in HU Limit

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Originally Posted by mustmuck View Post
... There could be some legitimate reasons, such as fooling an ISP with draconian rules.
situation we could all soon find ourselves in.
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Old 04-23-2010, 03:35 PM   #19
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Re: Betfair Anonoymous Proxy in HU Limit

It is a known reg connecting to the server by other means. His country was blacklisted by Fair and this is how he is able to continue playing.
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Old 04-23-2010, 03:46 PM   #20
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Re: Betfair Anonoymous Proxy in HU Limit

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Originally Posted by alch View Post
not a bot, he has played on fair for ages and sometimes talks in chat.
I'm not saying anyone is or isn't a bot, I'm just pointing out the use of proxies.

Also if your running a bot for High stakes you will probably sit and control it, typing in chat etc., I don't think leaving a computer to gamble 10's of thousands unatended while you go to the pub would be a good idea.
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Old 04-23-2010, 06:11 PM   #21
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Re: Betfair Anonoymous Proxy in HU Limit

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Originally Posted by mustmuck View Post
2) Nobody has shown that the location information is based on IP rather than what the user enters. Has nobody played on Betfair while out of their home country?
Location is def based on IP. A player with a location of Germany told a joke in chat - when other players commented that the joke was surprisingly funny for a German, he said he was in Ireland and had never been to Germany, so his ISP must have been routing through Germany.

ok it might be possible that a German could recount a funny joke and then level the table, but what are the chances?
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Old 04-23-2010, 06:20 PM   #22
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Re: Betfair Anonoymous Proxy in HU Limit

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Location is def based on IP. A player with a location of Germany told a joke in chat - when other players commented that the joke was surprisingly funny for a German, he said he was in Ireland and had never been to Germany, so his ISP must have been routing through Germany.
That rather proves (if anything) that it isn't based on IP address.

If it was based on the originator's IP address it would have to be a Irish one unless the person in question attached via a private network of some kind - otherwise the server would never be able to respond to the correct computer.
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Old 04-23-2010, 06:32 PM   #23
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Re: Betfair Anonoymous Proxy in HU Limit

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Originally Posted by Wiki View Post
That rather proves (if anything) that it isn't based on IP address.

If it was based on the originator's IP address it would have to be a Irish one unless the person in question attached via a private network of some kind - otherwise the server would never be able to respond to the correct computer.
So going back to OP - you think someone puts "anonymous proxy" as their location?

(and do something about your german sense of humour)
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Old 04-23-2010, 06:58 PM   #24
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Re: Betfair Anonoymous Proxy in HU Limit

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I don't want to drag the debate into a discussion on Stox but:

Bryce Paradis is regarded as one of the best HU limit players ever and I know that Bryce helped improve the bot, and 2nd time around they got true experts to play it. (As opposed to TV stars), and I think they broke even, I haven't read the link below yet.

http://www.stoxpoker.com/mvm/man_vs_machine_media.html

I don't play limit at all, I just saw this browsing the lobby. And I remember a while back there was potential problems with bots at the very highest stakes.

I'm not implicating anyone in cheating and I have the highest regard for Bryce I'm just referencing the existence on HU limit bots.
Partly agree. But still largely marketting. You telling me newhizzle is one of the best limit players?
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Old 04-24-2010, 03:14 AM   #25
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Re: Betfair Anonoymous Proxy in HU Limit

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So going back to OP - you think someone puts "anonymous proxy" as their location?
No.

The sites will have a list of addresses of known proxy servers which they use to prevent people appearing to come from somewhere they do not.

These lists are used by various organisations to stop people misrepresenting themselves. Some forum sites, for example, will not allow people to register via a proxy server.

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(and do something about your german sense of humour)
Wat?
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