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Old 03-10-2008, 02:50 AM   #751
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Re: Battlefield Poker and 27 other Microgaming skins to close?

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Originally Posted by TMcStacks View Post
Everybody keeps talking about BFP and R9's, but do all the other skins clump into the same category as them? Are BFP and R9's in "more trouble" than RCC, Artic etc.?
It sounds like from we have been told those 2 even if microgaming finds a way to take over the white labels(or give them to another operator like TUSK) and wants to keep them running (which doesn't seem that likly) BFP and R9's won't ever be back on microgaming.

If MGS steps in and honors player balances then I doubt they will ever open again an another network as MGS might go after them to recoup losses from honoring balances.
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Old 03-10-2008, 02:57 AM   #752
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Re: Battlefield Poker and 27 other Microgaming skins to close?

hmmm this thread just gets more and more depressive.
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Old 03-10-2008, 03:21 AM   #753
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Re: Battlefield Poker and 27 other Microgaming skins to close?

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hmmm this thread just gets more and more depressive.
Don't panic yet...

People in this thread have pointed out that the player balances are, or at least at some stage were, held in trust. They have also mentioned that the company isn't necessarily insolvent. This means that our money is likely safe.

Let's just wait and see what the liquidator's initial report says about the player balances and then we can make informed decisions about how to pursue this further.

Last edited by unluckyone; 03-10-2008 at 03:35 AM.
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Old 03-10-2008, 03:24 AM   #754
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Re: Battlefield Poker and 27 other Microgaming skins to close?

alright, i havnt done **** yet, but should i start thinking about contacting a lawyer or whatever. I'd really appreciate if some of the guys who are giving great information and great posts in this thread chimed in with what they would be doing if they had money tied up with one of these skins (battlefield for me), and if your advice changes for me, or other high stakes pros who have a very large amount locked up (~$215k for me)

thanks
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Old 03-10-2008, 04:01 AM   #755
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Re: Battlefield Poker and 27 other Microgaming skins to close?

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Originally Posted by skier_5 View Post
alright, i havnt done **** yet, but should i start thinking about contacting a lawyer or whatever. I'd really appreciate if some of the guys who are giving great information and great posts in this thread chimed in with what they would be doing if they had money tied up with one of these skins (battlefield for me), and if your advice changes for me, or other high stakes pros who have a very large amount locked up (~$215k for me)

thanks
In terms of highering a lawyer it really depends how important that 200k is to you. But if it was me I would in a second (assuming I had money to spare). This situation has looked horrible from the start. If I had to bet my life it would be in favour of not getting the funds

MGS hasn;t even mentioned that they are trying to get our money back, or any possible alternatives for the players. The skins refuse to disclose any information about tusk (when they clearly have contact info and owners names). While we do know funds were kept in trust at one point MGS reported insufficient reserves on behalf of TUSK which would suggest possible embezzlement. Having money in trust just means that you get to collect before those who arn't in trust. If the money isn't there to collect.... I can only hope MGS caught them before too much of the money was gone.

I really feel that if there was good news someone would have leaked it by now as the negative publicity is going to destroy everyone involved.

If you remeber lots of people at the start of this thread claimed there would be a solution within a week and in the works.

BTW I would really like someone's opinion regarding legal recourse towards the skins. I mean shouldn;t they be the one;s involved in the liquidation as well? Why arn't they hiring lawyers afterall tusk has their player accounts.
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Old 03-10-2008, 04:12 AM   #756
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Re: Battlefield Poker and 27 other Microgaming skins to close?

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Originally Posted by F. McSimmons View Post
Somebody please cliffnote this for me. I haven't the time to read this all. I suspect others may feel the same.
The first post in this thread links to a Cliffs Notes. Direct link. It doesn't go into details we've found like Tusk's ownership and the structure of the companies, but it covers the basics.


I'm skeptical that there's anything +EV to be done other than wait. We don't know if this is a voluntary liquidation of a solvent company or some kind of mess. I think getting a lawyer in Vanuatu to look into it might be the only possibly-plus EV thing to do. Parsing Microgaming's third statement: Microgaming has now been advised that a liquidator has been appointed by Tusk Investments Corporation. They don't get to appoint their own liquidator if it's an involuntary liquidation, do they? I'd like to hear MLSchaff's take on that, as he's said he has experience with a few liquidations. We've heard that Vanuatu bankruptcy law is nonexistent so they use UK bankruptcy law, which I assume is similar to other countries with British legal systems like the US. So I wonder if MLSchaff may be able to make some relevant comments based on his experience (about if any legal action is +EV and whether MG's statement indicates a voluntary liquidation).
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Old 03-10-2008, 04:30 AM   #757
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Re: Battlefield Poker and 27 other Microgaming skins to close?

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The skins refuse to disclose any information about tusk (when they clearly have contact info and owners names).
People keep on saying that, but there's plenty of such information in this thread. We believe we know all the owners. We have the name of MPP's financial manager. The web site of the operating unit is still on the web, with contact information. I just found a street (as opposed to GPO) address:
13/340 Adelaide St.
Brisbane Queensland 4000 Australia
We have the address they're registered at in Vanuatu as well, though it's undoubtedly just an offshore-company lawyer's office. Anyone that wants to can try to talk to these people.

Edit: Note that most staff (e.g. people the skins worked with) have undoubtedly been laid off by now.


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Originally Posted by acethiest View Post
While we do know funds were kept in trust at one point MGS reported insufficient reserves on behalf of TUSK...
I think you're mistaken: they just said that Tusk had informed them they were liquidating.

Last edited by Self Made; 03-10-2008 at 04:41 AM. Reason: added note about staff being laid off
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Old 03-10-2008, 04:36 AM   #758
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Re: Battlefield Poker and 27 other Microgaming skins to close?

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Originally Posted by Self Made View Post
People keep on saying that, but there's plenty of such information in this thread. We believe we know all the owners. We have the name of MPP's financial manager. The web site of the operating unit is still on the web, with contact information. I just found a street (as opposed to GPO) address:
13/340 Adelaide St.
Brisbane Queensland 4000 Australia
We have the address they're registered at in Vanuatu as well, though it's undoubtedly just a offshore-company lawyer's office. Anyone that wants to can try to talk to these people.




I think you're mistaken: they just said that Tusk had informed them they were liquidating.

Maybe that was from econgra then? Because I specifically remember reading that statement..
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Old 03-10-2008, 04:42 AM   #759
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Re: Battlefield Poker and 27 other Microgaming skins to close?

AH MY MISTAKE THE bad reserves comment came from jetset

"From this it appears that the "non-compliance" issue had to do with the casino group failing to maintain the ratio of reserves to obligations.

And it must be pretty serious if the casino group is contemplating going into liquidation.

I'm sure we'll be hearing more from everyone involved in this over the coming days."

Gotta love when my information is coming from a guy who is named aftre a site that scammed players money lol.
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Old 03-10-2008, 05:09 AM   #760
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Re: Battlefield Poker and 27 other Microgaming skins to close?

[beware of sermon]

We all have to evaluate the safety of the poker rooms we deposit money into. It's better to know something about that first than to look for people to blame later.

At one point I thought I made an intelligent decision to move most of my bankroll from various rooms to Neteller: it got frozen for a long time. I did eventually get my money of course. So it is possible to make an informed decision and still be wrong... or at least lose access to your money for a while (which hopefully is the outcome in this case).

Every room and network has a reputation, good or bad. The smallest ones are presumed to be the least safe, and sometimes do disappear ignominiously (e.g Tropical). Public companies (e.g. Party) are presumed to be safer, as they're subject to a lot of scrutiny and we can read their financial statements any time we want. A lot of people think PokerStars is the best of all, despite knowing very little about that private company (though I don't doubt their reputation is deserved). Absolute (which owns UB) is despised by many, but they've always paid (even to those that lost money in the insider cheating scandal).

A lot of the major networks have high reputations (e.g. I consider Crypto and Boss to be reputable). On the other hand, there are a slew of Playtech (which powers iPoker) casinos on Casinomeister's rogue list. Microgaming bailed out failed licensees by setting up players trusts (InfoPowa reference to that) twice when casinos failed in the past. Ongame, on the other hand, let players hang when skins from a white-label seller went under (PRR about Futurebet).

There's lots of information about these networks/sites out there. Make an informed decision before putting your money somewhere (and don't keep unnecessary funds there). You could make an informed decision and still end up wrong, but at least make an informed decision to start.

[/sermon's over]
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Old 03-10-2008, 05:56 AM   #761
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Re: Battlefield Poker and 27 other Microgaming skins to close?

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Originally Posted by Self Made View Post
At one point I thought I made an intelligent decision to move most of my bankroll from various rooms to Neteller:
It doesn't feel safe to deposit your money anywhere after this fraud. Worried about my bankroll i went to Neteller's site and clicked on the link "Legal" just to find this very encouraging piece of statement: "The NETELLER Group is not responsible in any manner for any direct, indirect, special, consequential, punitive exemplary or incidental damages, whether based on negligence, wilful misconduct, tort, contract or any other theory of law, or for any damages for loss of data, loss of income, failure to realize expected revenues or savings, loss of profits or any economic or pecuniary loss, arising out of your use of this site."

So why should i feel safe using Neteller?
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Old 03-10-2008, 08:06 AM   #762
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Re: Battlefield Poker and 27 other Microgaming skins to close?

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Originally Posted by Self Made View Post
[beware of sermon]
Microgaming bailed out failed licensees by setting up players trusts (InfoPowa reference to that) twice when casinos failed in the past.
It would be interesting to know more details about this. If these sites were strictly casinos the money owed might have been substantially less than with Tusk. Casino players typically don't keep money sitting in their accounts like poker players do. They deposit, play, and either lose it all, or win and withdraw. I've heard from casino managers that 99% of casino players will not leave a balance in their account overnight. Battlefield and Red Nines alone probably had well over $1 million in player deposits.

And as for what sites are trustworthy or not, we should all remember BetonSports (BoS).They were one of the largest US-facing sportsbooks and publically traded on the London stock exchange. That didn't help the players when they went under. The CEO was arrested in the US and the company decided to shut down. Why they shut down and what happened to the player deposits is a mystery. No one got paid a penny.

BTW, BoS had a poker room on the now defunct Tribeca network (BoSpoker). No one suggested that Tribeca step up and pay the players, and it would be unreasonable to do so as poker was only a small part of their business. But I remember reading stories of poker players who lost high 5 figures to BoS.

Last edited by uffda; 03-10-2008 at 08:19 AM.
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Old 03-10-2008, 08:20 AM   #763
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Re: Battlefield Poker and 27 other Microgaming skins to close?

I have been away since Friday and so have not been able to keep up to date on this thread... have there been any major developments over the weekend?

Thanks
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Old 03-10-2008, 08:44 AM   #764
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Re: Battlefield Poker and 27 other Microgaming skins to close?

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Originally Posted by HarriSeldon View Post
So why should i feel safe using Neteller?
For those in the UK, Neteller is regulated by the Financial Services Authority, and deposits are held in independent trust accounts.

I have no qualms about having money on deposit with them. It's as safe as it can be outside of the Bank of England's gold store room. Probably safer - Gordon the Clown won't be tempted to sell my money for stupidly low prices as he did with a chunk of our gold reserves

I know there was a problem with the freeze for US customers' money, but that situation was of the lunatic US Government's making wasn't it? And as I understand it there was never any risk that money was going to disappear.

The advice to check who your money is going to is sound. The difficulty with the Tusk situation for an uninformed user seems to be that there was no transparency of how the skins were set up to operate. There are new players on MicroGaming who don't even realise their opponents aren't all playing on the same "site", so it's hard to expect them to understand their money isn't actually lodged with the skin when the skin's website may have no mention of any 3rd party company.
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Old 03-10-2008, 09:40 AM   #765
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Re: Battlefield Poker and 27 other Microgaming skins to close?

nothing is safe, whenever you give your money to someone it has to be someone you trust.

when my country broke free from the soviet union there was a bank, which had very good offers, so everyone deposited there, then the bank declared bankruptcy and it's owner fled to the US with everyone's savings.

i'm just wondering is anyone (the skins) actually doing something about this, and, really, is there anything that can be done?
and im 100% sure that Tusk is doing everything they can not to give the money back to the players as the sum they literally stole is probably well over $10M.

i have $420 on battlefield, but i somehow don't think i'll ever see them again.
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