It sounds like from we have been told those 2 even if microgaming finds a way to take over the white labels(or give them to another operator like TUSK) and wants to keep them running (which doesn't seem that likly) BFP and R9's won't ever be back on microgaming.

If MGS steps in and honors player balances then I doubt they will ever open again an another network as MGS might go after them to recoup losses from honoring balances.

hmmm this thread just gets more and more depressive.

Don't panic yet...

People in this thread have pointed out that the player balances are, or at least at some stage were, held in trust. They have also mentioned that the company isn't necessarily insolvent. This means that our money is likely safe.

Let's just wait and see what the liquidator's initial report says about the player balances and then we can make informed decisions about how to pursue this further.

alright, i havnt done **** yet, but should i start thinking about contacting a lawyer or whatever. I'd really appreciate if some of the guys who are giving great information and great posts in this thread chimed in with what they would be doing if they had money tied up with one of these skins (battlefield for me), and if your advice changes for me, or other high stakes pros who have a very large amount locked up (~$215k for me)

thanks

In terms of highering a lawyer it really depends how important that 200k is to you. But if it was me I would in a second (assuming I had money to spare). This situation has looked horrible from the start. If I had to bet my life it would be in favour of not getting the funds

MGS hasn;t even mentioned that they are trying to get our money back, or any possible alternatives for the players. The skins refuse to disclose any information about tusk (when they clearly have contact info and owners names). While we do know funds were kept in trust at one point MGS reported insufficient reserves on behalf of TUSK which would suggest possible embezzlement. Having money in trust just means that you get to collect before those who arn't in trust. If the money isn't there to collect.... I can only hope MGS caught them before too much of the money was gone.

I really feel that if there was good news someone would have leaked it by now as the negative publicity is going to destroy everyone involved.

If you remeber lots of people at the start of this thread claimed there would be a solution within a week and in the works.

BTW I would really like someone's opinion regarding legal recourse towards the skins. I mean shouldn;t they be the one;s involved in the liquidation as well? Why arn't they hiring lawyers afterall tusk has their player accounts.

The first post in this thread links to a Cliffs Notes. Direct link. It doesn't go into details we've found like Tusk's ownership and the structure of the companies, but it covers the basics.


I'm skeptical that there's anything +EV to be done other than wait. We don't know if this is a voluntary liquidation of a solvent company or some kind of mess. I think getting a lawyer in Vanuatu to look into it might be the only possibly-plus EV thing to do. Parsing Microgaming's third statement: Microgaming has now been advised that a liquidator has been appointed by Tusk Investments Corporation. They don't get to appoint their own liquidator if it's an involuntary liquidation, do they? I'd like to hear MLSchaff's take on that, as he's said he has experience with a few liquidations. We've heard that Vanuatu bankruptcy law is nonexistent so they use UK bankruptcy law, which I assume is similar to other countries with British legal systems like the US. So I wonder if MLSchaff may be able to make some relevant comments based on his experience (about if any legal action is +EV and whether MG's statement indicates a voluntary liquidation).

People keep on saying that, but there's plenty of such information in this thread. We believe we know all the owners. We have the name of MPP's financial manager. The web site of the operating unit is still on the web, with contact information. I just found a street (as opposed to GPO) address:
13/340 Adelaide St.
Brisbane Queensland 4000 Australia
We have the address they're registered at in Vanuatu as well, though it's undoubtedly just an offshore-company lawyer's office. Anyone that wants to can try to talk to these people.

Edit: Note that most staff (e.g. people the skins worked with) have undoubtedly been laid off by now.


I think you're mistaken: they just said that Tusk had informed them they were liquidating.

Maybe that was from econgra then? Because I specifically remember reading that statement..

AH MY MISTAKE THE bad reserves comment came from jetset

"From this it appears that the "non-compliance" issue had to do with the casino group failing to maintain the ratio of reserves to obligations.

And it must be pretty serious if the casino group is contemplating going into liquidation.

I'm sure we'll be hearing more from everyone involved in this over the coming days."

Gotta love when my information is coming from a guy who is named aftre a site that scammed players money lol.

[beware of sermon]

We all have to evaluate the safety of the poker rooms we deposit money into. It's better to know something about that first than to look for people to blame later.

At one point I thought I made an intelligent decision to move most of my bankroll from various rooms to Neteller: it got frozen for a long time. I did eventually get my money of course. So it is possible to make an informed decision and still be wrong... or at least lose access to your money for a while (which hopefully is the outcome in this case).

Every room and network has a reputation, good or bad. The smallest ones are presumed to be the least safe, and sometimes do disappear ignominiously (e.g Tropical). Public companies (e.g. Party) are presumed to be safer, as they're subject to a lot of scrutiny and we can read their financial statements any time we want. A lot of people think PokerStars is the best of all, despite knowing very little about that private company (though I don't doubt their reputation is deserved). Absolute (which owns UB) is despised by many, but they've always paid (even to those that lost money in the insider cheating scandal).

A lot of the major networks have high reputations (e.g. I consider Crypto and Boss to be reputable). On the other hand, there are a slew of Playtech (which powers iPoker) casinos on Casinomeister's rogue list. Microgaming bailed out failed licensees by setting up players trusts (InfoPowa reference to that) twice when casinos failed in the past. Ongame, on the other hand, let players hang when skins from a white-label seller went under (PRR about Futurebet).

There's lots of information about these networks/sites out there. Make an informed decision before putting your money somewhere (and don't keep unnecessary funds there). You could make an informed decision and still end up wrong, but at least make an informed decision to start.

[/sermon's over]

It doesn't feel safe to deposit your money anywhere after this fraud. Worried about my bankroll i went to Neteller's site and clicked on the link "Legal" just to find this very encouraging piece of statement: "The NETELLER Group is not responsible in any manner for any direct, indirect, special, consequential, punitive exemplary or incidental damages, whether based on negligence, wilful misconduct, tort, contract or any other theory of law, or for any damages for loss of data, loss of income, failure to realize expected revenues or savings, loss of profits or any economic or pecuniary loss, arising out of your use of this site."

So why should i feel safe using Neteller?

It would be interesting to know more details about this. If these sites were strictly casinos the money owed might have been substantially less than with Tusk. Casino players typically don't keep money sitting in their accounts like poker players do. They deposit, play, and either lose it all, or win and withdraw. I've heard from casino managers that 99% of casino players will not leave a balance in their account overnight. Battlefield and Red Nines alone probably had well over $1 million in player deposits.

And as for what sites are trustworthy or not, we should all remember BetonSports (BoS).They were one of the largest US-facing sportsbooks and publically traded on the London stock exchange. That didn't help the players when they went under. The CEO was arrested in the US and the company decided to shut down. Why they shut down and what happened to the player deposits is a mystery. No one got paid a penny.

BTW, BoS had a poker room on the now defunct Tribeca network (BoSpoker). No one suggested that Tribeca step up and pay the players, and it would be unreasonable to do so as poker was only a small part of their business. But I remember reading stories of poker players who lost high 5 figures to BoS.

I have been away since Friday and so have not been able to keep up to date on this thread... have there been any major developments over the weekend?

Thanks

For those in the UK, Neteller is regulated by the Financial Services Authority, and deposits are held in independent trust accounts.

I have no qualms about having money on deposit with them. It's as safe as it can be outside of the Bank of England's gold store room. Probably safer - Gordon the Clown won't be tempted to sell my money for stupidly low prices as he did with a chunk of our gold reserves

I know there was a problem with the freeze for US customers' money, but that situation was of the lunatic US Government's making wasn't it? And as I understand it there was never any risk that money was going to disappear.

The advice to check who your money is going to is sound. The difficulty with the Tusk situation for an uninformed user seems to be that there was no transparency of how the skins were set up to operate. There are new players on MicroGaming who don't even realise their opponents aren't all playing on the same "site", so it's hard to expect them to understand their money isn't actually lodged with the skin when the skin's website may have no mention of any 3rd party company.

nothing is safe, whenever you give your money to someone it has to be someone you trust.

when my country broke free from the soviet union there was a bank, which had very good offers, so everyone deposited there, then the bank declared bankruptcy and it's owner fled to the US with everyone's savings.

i'm just wondering is anyone (the skins) actually doing something about this, and, really, is there anything that can be done?
and im 100% sure that Tusk is doing everything they can not to give the money back to the players as the sum they literally stole is probably well over $10M.

i have $420 on battlefield, but i somehow don't think i'll ever see them again.

No.

I am UK Lawyer (corporate/banking) and have done a bit of insolvency.

IF the funds are held in trust they should come out of the liquidation first, in priority to all other creditors. If not - they will come out more or less last (after secured creditors, taxes, employee debts and liquidator's fees and alongside all other trade creditors) and if there is any significant level of insolvency you can usually forget about getting anything much back.
Of course we don't know whether there are sufficient funds to cover 100% of the players funds even if those are meant to be held in trust.

As a rule of thumb you should simply never put funds in a poker room that doesn't make it clear that its player funds are held in trust.

Our best bet remains that Microgaming (who are the ultimate franchisor for this group) step in and make up any deficits. Techically they are just licensors of software and so have no legal obligation to vet who takes licences from them, but in reality they are the brand owners and those that control the terms upon which their franchisees trade and how the players' cash is dealt with.

If they pick a bunch of crooks as licensees, happily take money off them for a year or two in fees (generated by the player rake) and then sit back and watch all those players get hung out to dry for their entire cash balances then, no matter how much they try to spin it, their reputation will be permanently ruined amongst the online poker community.

How much that is worth to them is anyone's guess, but if they don't pay then the sensible advice to any player that asks will be 'You have safe deposit options like Stars and (if non-US Will Hill. Ladbrokes or even Party) available. You would be certifiable to put $$ into Microgaming sites'.

IF ownd MG id tell all u **** that had money tied up to **** off im not liable i still got over 10k of players of traffic obv this mess didnt scare off the players on other skins so business as norm for MG software upgrade main concern. i have played MG for over 5 years Full time and i will not play there anymore i have withdrawn all my funds(thank god i have pennys on BF an main loot was on safe skin) and even if MG makes good on this personaly i feel its taken way to long to tie up someones funds and give no responce but WE CAN SAY **** CAUSE WE DONT WANT TO dosnt leave me much faith if my skin gives me a prob, i see what MG will do just cover **** up long as possinble CYA ON BODOG

retired fulltime MG player

PS if my chat wasnt band id be talkin so much **** on MG ive been playin since this bs went down an havnt seen 1 person talk about it to let others on MG no its just a matter of time till they get ripd off also

I still think the silence is sending everyone into wild conspiracies.

Think about my earlier theory which having been tweaked by Self Made et al seems to be the most logical approach.

MPP was fuelled by R9 and BFP rake. Other than maybe Arctic and RCC all other rake from the other rooms was non existant/non significant. The two big guns gone means that they are left staring at an immediate operating loss from the moment they leave.

Here is the quick maths (very loose and flexible - please feel free to play with).

CS team (I guess 6 operators @ $500 week) = $12,000 month (6 x 500 x 4)
MPP Office team (I reckon a 4 man team @ maybe $1500 week each - possibly a lot more) = $24,000 month
Office rental, licencing fees, Rates, equipment, etc etc etc = ?
minus tax = -TAX
Theres probably more

Anyway the point is this if I am right about staffing costs alone MPP would need to turnover ~$36,000 month from their slice of the other poker rooms just to break even just on wages, in reality this figure could well be more like $75,000 a month. It doesn't take a rocket scienctist to realise that if the big 2 ARE pulled from the network that they simply are not going to achieve this. Hence voluntary liquidation.

Remember that there are lots of independent skins on MGS and when a player wins money from one of these from an MPP player then that money transfers from whatever account that money is in to the independent skins banking group. Also does anyone know if it is the case that all independent skins use separate banking to each other as this is a constantly changing process and would be extremely awkward to track if their was a breakdown at one of the skins banking groups.

I believe all player money is safe, BUT, MGS need to await the report of the liquidator to assess this statement, before verifying if their is a shortfall or not.

Surely if their is then the only reason for this would be MPP dipping in to help out. Again I don't see this being the case as it looks as if they went into liquidation voluntarily due to the loss of the 2 skins that helped keep them afloat.

None of the above is based on anything solid but it is all educated speculation from somebody who has had dealings with MPP and know how they operate.

Like Self Made said, if anyone wants to get a lawyer involved I believe the most pertinent step at this stage is to enquire about what stage the liquidation has progressed to and get as much information as possible from them at this moment in time.

I got lost...the point I was trying to make is that for the money transfer reason between the different operators, I personally believe that these funds would not have been touched as it was the timing of the BFP and R9 removal from the network that started all this, not MPP running too far into the red and getting themselves into the 5hit by having to dip into the player funds. If BFP and R9 were staying on the network and there was no chance of them being removed for the rakeback violations then I would be very worried about the money that I had tied up in the sites.

Again all speculation but I think this is the closest thing we have to what went down if you look at all the facts involved.

This is the majority owner of Tusk, Ken Talbot. He's an Australian coal magnate, worth a few hundred million. Also owns 20% of Global Approach.

i look at it like this

1-players have no access to funds(cashout or play with)

2-some players are screwd im sure some needed rent mortage etcetc that now had to find other ways to pay there bills.

3 -players aint making money right now just losing sleep waiting to see if they ever get refunded and if they do wtf do we get for 2 weeks of sleep lose wondering this an that hell it could be 2 months or longer, is anyone gonna pay interst on this?

4 MG is up an runing business as normal they aint losing any sleep over this hell there still making money an upgrading software

5 even if tusk did rip everyone off an MG pays everyone back is it still gonna make up for the 2-3 weeks of bs with no word everything i seem to read in this post is news from players, skins an everyone else involved with a site just says we cant say chit expect we belive players funds are safe, what u think there gonna say we cant say anything but we think players funds are gone?

FWIW - this information is dated May 24, 2006. http://www.globalapproach.com.au/ann...060526-nom.pdf (This will give you info about Tusk, its legal representaton, players, etc). Check out the principles' affiliations ( 2 of the 3 with Macarthur Coal/Macarthur Minerals)

This is turn leads to Ken Talbot, CEO of the Macarthur Group Companies.

The next 3 sites will give you some insight as to the "scruples" of Ken Talbot.

www.high.com.com/doc/1P1-134615289.html

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...350-601,00.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...19/2122499.htm

Again, FWIW.

.

http://globalbusinessleaders.org/Web...evelcd=c06r002

KEN TALBOT: I'm going to put my money where my mouth is, as I said I believe in the minerals boom for the next five to 10 year so what I'm doing is I'll put $100 million into the resources industry and I'm looking to set up a small mining investment house looking at a number of commodities which will give me exposure to coal, uranium, maybe zinc, iron ore, etc, but to do that in a way where we think we can make some money.

maybe thats were the money went digin for coal

oh ya FORBES list this POS as top 40 richest people, wtf he need are loot for guess its true rich get richer