If you are not already aware, Pokerstars has asked the community to select representatives to negotiate and put forward their concerns and possible solutions to any discrepancies surrounding the current rake and reward system.
Voting via polls on the forums to choose representatives has NOT taken place as of yet. Potential reps who made a voting poll to allow people to vote for them did not put themselves up against any other potential reps in those polls, or counted some votes that were posted but again not comparing those votes to those of other reps.
VOTE FOR THE 4 PEOPLE YOU WANT AS YOUR REPS
The first thread was closed due to problems with the poll not being open/fair voting, and the request that a timer is put on the poll.
There is ongoing discussion in this thread
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...tions-1147161/ about how the rake and/or reward system could be improved.
Something important you should know is that this is NOT about trying to convince Stars to drop WCR and return to Dealt. In fact, a lot of people are content with WCR but still feel that the rake charge and/or reward system have much room for improvement and this is what the reps will be focusing on. The reps are keen on exploring solutions to problems and welcome input from the community.
So far, these are the names of the people who have put themselves forward as representatives. Sect7G, xPeru, Klairic, krmont22, chisness, --UCLA Deity--. Below are the introductions to each of them.
----------------------
Sect7G
"Preferably I'd like to see the negotiations done in a more open setting but I can see why Pokerstars would like it held in private.
I would be happy to go to represent LHE at the lower stakes. I have been playing Limit for 6 years starting as a HU player on Paradise and then moving my play to Pokerstars in '07. I have played for a living on Pokerstars since 2009 playing a mix of FR and 6 max LHE at the 2-4 to 5-10 buy ins. Over this time I've made about 1 million VPP's.
The change to WC has little affect on me personally but I am very concerned about the projected losses of my peers. This game has been slowly dying over the past few years and if too many of these regs leave to softer sites/switch games LHE will seize to exist. I honestly don't have much of a personal bias. I play LHE because I truly enjoy the game, as for profits per hour I am much better off playing MTT's so my only mission is to help keep this game from not going the way of Stud.
Without some concesions by Pokerstars I don't think this game will survive these changes. Even the very best of players at the stakes I'm reffering to have laughable winrates on a bb/100 hands basis, edges are so small, and this game is brutally raked in relation to pot sizes. Players rely on RB. Since WC is here to stay I would do my best to have Pstars see the need for either or a combination of:
1) lower rake caps at each Stake
2) higher VPP multiplier
3) reduced rake"
"I'd like to thank everyone that has voted for me to help represent LHE for the IOM talks.
Above is a condensed version of my platform for LHE if I am selected to be on the Panel by Pokerstars. This plan will adapt over the coming weeks due to feedback and stats from players which can be viewed in the Micro Limit forum. If selected I'd also like to start a Skype group with fellow Limit Players to bounce ideas off each other.
I'm 33, married and have two small Children and live in Canada. For some of the posters who have doubted the agendas or motivations of some of the applicants I ask you- What is your suggestion?
Players have tried strikes, threatened to leave, but so far the changes have not been rolled back or acceptably modified. These meetings are what Pokerstars has offered us in good faith and I certainly doubt they are going to just put on a dog and pony show.
But to answer the cynacism (i hope it's coming out of general frustration over the changes) of some peoples concerns about my agenda for LHE.
People play poker for money generally. Take a quick look at my PTR/estimated rb, and then compare it to my Sharkscope for Scheduled Games. As you'll see on an hourly basis money wise, I'm a fool to play LHE.
I play LHE because I truly enjoy the game as it was my introduction to Poker and will always be my first passion. For the most part my suggestions in the past for Pokerstars have been to serve players other then myself including my recomendation at the Wsop of Limit Player Tzen1 for Online Pro to Pstars Steve. While at the same time I had profited the most of any player at the same stake (2-4) that year and had a decent following amongst my peers at the tables. Blogging and self promotion is just not my game.
I must say I can think of a couple bloggers on 2+2 who have been rather quiet about these changes... who knows maybe Online Pro is in their future. It won't be in mine."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sect7G
Hi guys, my tentative platform and related info about me is in the OP. I fully expect to make slight revisions to this platform based on player feeback through 2+2 and a Skype group if I am nominated to represent us players.
IMPORTANT THING OF NOTE:
It is important to inform prospective voters that I worked for Pokerstars for 2 months starting in mid December 2010 through to mid February 2011.
I applied for a position in Security with the hopes of serving players after reading and being affected by a major LHE scandal involving Furbean and Fua99. I resigned from my position after two months and after a brief hiatus from Poker returned as a player on Pokerstars.
With my experiences working for Pokerstars I feel that I can bring valuable tools to the table which can only help in negotiating for players. I did not mention this earlier as I wasn't sure if it was in violation of my current NDA. Pokerstars Steve to his credit, PM'd me and explained the obvious need to pass along this piece of information.
Currently I have an idea that I guarantee will benefit 99.99% of Cash Game players regardless of game type, stake or buy ins. I am asking for your support to go to bat for players to make Pokerstars a better place for players.
Sincerely,
Dan
|
----------------------
xPeru
"1. I've made my living playing poker for nearly 6 years now. Mostly at microstakes 6 max nl cash. I play around 1m hands a year. At the moment I'm 16 tabling 25nl and 50nl.
2. I'm British, living in Peru. This just about covers it:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...inally-543793/
3. My 23 year old son is coming to visit on 3rd Feb, so I have to be back by then.
4. I know nothing about the issues related to SNE or CAP NL 1/2 etc.
5. Hood "knows" me from my posts in STTF and FWIW I also write news articles on poker for an affiliate site. Just Google- "Joss Wood" poker and you'll find me.
6. Feel free to PM me with your points, and if some other people post that they're happy with me going, I'd feel happier that I'm representing your views rather than arguing for my own self-interest.
Edit: In response top previous request for real life experience:
I'm a former Army Major, been involved in 5 wars. I'm also a former Financial Services Authority authorised Chief Executive of a mortgage company and I've worked for the financial asset backed securities team at Morgan Stanley."
"Started last year as Supernova (which is pretty good considering most of my VIPs came from 10nl). Suffered bad RSI in April so lost it and generally play Platinum. I expect to get SN back if the new changes haven't killed my chances sometime in October."
Quote:
Originally Posted by xPeru
Thought I'd x-post this here to let you know my thoughts:...
I thought I'd shut up for a while and see where this debate went. 
I spent a lot of time thinking about this last night, so here's where I've got to:
1. I believe that PokerStars is sincere in wanting a real discussion with player representatives.
2. They are prepared to make some changes, but the cost of the changes they have the freedom to make is extremely limited.
3. As far as possible, we should try to make our arguments for change a win/win proposition.
4. We should also focus not solely on the present, but take a longer term view and attempt to construct a coordinated strategy with PokerStars about the scope and method of implementation of changes in the future.
5. According to research by Professor Fiedler of Hamburg University, 1% of players play 60% of all hands. 10% play 90% of all hands. 50% play less than 10 hours a year.
http://uni-hamburg.academia.edu/Ingo..._Poker_Players
These startling figures tell me that PokerStars would very much like to turn as many of the 50% into the 10% and 1% as possible.
They must have a superb marketing machine to generate huge volumes of new players. Their customer service must have an objective of increasing the "stickiness" of these new players, so that they play more hours, and more tables. It must also ensure that the 1% receive magnificent rewards and the 10% extremely good rewards, to ensure that the site does not lose their custom to competitors.
We need to recognise this background.
6. We all know that the games are getting harder. This means that at every level, win rates have dropped substantially. This has had 3 major impacts.
a. The skill level required to beat a game at every level has substantially increased. This traps people at lower levels. I constantly struggle to leave 10nl and stay at 25nl. With a 1BB/100 winrate, the variance is such that huge downswings are statistically inevitable and I bounce back down to 10nl again - where I pay Stars less rake! b. Instead of moving up, marginal winning players stay at the lowest levels. Even at 1c/2c there are professional grinders, and by the time you get to 5c/10c, 2 or 3 seats at every table are occupied by regulars multitabling. At these low levels, new players get crushed. Unless they get some serious study in, they quickly lose their money, get disheartened and quit the game. c. The rake at the micros is a much larger percentage of a winning player's income. With me, over 65% of my income goes in rake.
Getting the rake/benefits package right at the microstakes level is critical to nurturing new players.
The Approach
1. We should not go into Stars with a list of demands! We need to explain how the changes we want to see will benefit all the groups involved: PokerStars; regular and casual players at all stakes and all levels and in all games.
2. We should work with Stars, using our player experience to help them craft a rake/benefits package which: a. Increases their profits by encouraging more players to play more hands at higher levels.
b. Keeps the games beatable by ensuring that the rake is at a level which isn’t higher than realistic winrates.
c. Doesn’t result in sudden drastic income changes for players.
d. Rewards loyalty thus increasing player retention.
e. That, every now and then, should surprise and delight the players! |
----------------------
Klairic
"I'm a full ring NL player. I play 1/2 right now, but before I took an extended break this year, I was a 2/4 - 5/10 player. I've achieved SNE in 2009/2010, and am going for it again next year."
"Hi guys, I'm trying to convince PS Steve to include me in the talks about the rake/VIP issues. So, here's my background, and point of view, and why I think you'd like me to represent our collective interests.
I achieved Supernova Elite in 2009/2010, and will be going for it in 2012 regardless of what the rake/VIP status is. I'm a mid/small stakes full ring player. I was a part of the shortstacker/ratholing discussion in Monaco in 2010, and believe I was a big part of Stars adopting cap games because of the way I presented my arguments.
Personally, I think that the VIP system should be switched to Winner Take All (WTA). In my opinion, it is the only true fair way of dealing with the situation. Stars has made it very clear that the previous "Dealt" method is not an option. So at this point, we have Weighted Contributed (WC), unless we can convince them of a better solution. I believe that WTA is a better solution for the majority of us, if not all of us. If I represent our interests, I'd like to present a balanced opinion from players here, including players that would rather see WC, or another option that isn't on the table at this point (some sort of hybrid solution).
If any of you have any questions/comments/suggestions on how to talk about this, I'm open to hear them. If you would like to see me speak on our behalf, it would be helpful if you could let Steve know.
Thanks for reading."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klairic
I'm a full ring NL player. I play 1/2 right now, but before I took an extended break this year, I was a 2/4 - 5/10 player. I've achieved SNE in 2009/2010, and am going for it again this year. I'm also the only guy nominated here that plays small/midstakes 100bb NL as a primary game.
I have experience speaking with Stars about the state of the games. I was a part of the shortstacker/ratholing discussion in Monaco in 2010, and believe I was the main reason that Stars adopted cap games because of the way I presented my arguments.
I'm here to take the communities suggestions for how to best direct things towards the best health of the games that we can get. I have a history of looking out for other players when it's not in my best interest, such as telling a reg that I'm not friends with to quit when he's obviously not in his right mind. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/11...l#post22783263
I'm not afraid to ask tough questions, and stand my ground. I'm here to do what I think is right for the state of the games, and I know that means some people are going to walk away unhappy. My goal is to improve the health of the games for both recreational players and pros.
I've started the discussion, and participated actively about how to best tackle these issues with Stars. http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...tions-1147161/ |
----------------------
krmont22
"Here is what I have to say for myself in regards to being on it:
American playing poker for 8 years. First three years I helped run and operate a 15 table card room, either dealing, being the floor manager, or playing for ~100 hrs/week. I have a strong idea of what keeps both players and the house happy.
My fourth year but my first time online, I played MTTs professionally on Stars.
The last four years, I played a mixture of NLH, SNGs, and PLO. I got SNE 3 out of the last 4 years and plan on getting it in 2012 assuming I can afford to based on the changes. I have been an active member of 2p2 and have been following all the threads on the changes very carefully.
In addition to playing poker, I staked and coached a group of 12 players from 2p2 over two years, and I have had an unblemished record of transfers, trades, and stakes. I also feel like I am one of the most honest and fair players at the tables when it comes to bumhunting, blindstealing, or any other angle shooting.
My viewpoint is that dealt method can not be kept, but the relocation of the funds should go directly to the player pool and not to Stars directly.
I don't want to fly to the Isle of Man either, but I would if that is what it takes to get this situation handled. Poker and Pokerstars has been my life and career for my entire adult life, and I have no desire to see it become unplayable.
I do agree that justification for changes can not be "our competitors do it" as the reason we all play on Pokerstars in the first place is because they are not their competitors. They have treated us fairly, have good customer support, and a good player base. Don't change the reasons we all commit our business to you.
In regards to the changes, I do feel dealt method is unfair. I am still undecided between WC and WTA, but I don't think that even matters as Stars is most likely going with WC no matter what. I feel like the major problem I have and most others have is that we want to make sure of a few things:
1. The games remain beatable. No one wants to play on a site where no one is winning. People play poker for the competition and the money.
2. The money taken from the winning players in this change is redistributed to the player pool or ways to increase the player pool (advertising, bonuses, etc)
3. There won't be further changes or updates which hurt winning players more this year. Other sites have openly made it clear that they do not want winning players on their site. I do not want to feel like Stars has the same view. People love Stars for their vip program and consistency. We make year long plans based on this.
I think this situation can definitely be handled to where both sides are happy, but the only way this can happen is through open dialogue, which I feel is not currently happening on 2p2 or anywhere. I want to be a part of this discussion and have no problem going to the Isle of Man to figure this out."
----------------------
Chisness
"I like the idea of in person negotiations as well. I've earned over 4m VPPs in the last 3 years from 6max NLHE/cap and and would also like to volunteer to go to the meetings to be part of the discussion."
"Thanks!
I'll add some details since krmont's looks so nice
-Graduated in 2008 w/ dm in Econ/Elec Eng
-1.5m VPP 2009, 1.25m VPP 2010, 1.5m VPP 2011 all almost entirely at 6max NLHE short/cap
-(I think) monthly VPP record for Dec 09 with about 550k (doesn't help my case much but I like bragging about this)
-Analytical background will help in understanding the models and data that Stars shows us and how the different new ideas work into the projections/equality for all players
-Feel that PokerStars has pretty much always been reasonable in the past and by suggesting this meeting is showing good faith in reaching a fair decision with the players
These are my main ones similar to what was posted before:
1) Games remaining beatable and players not being suffocated by the rake is crucial at all levels. If selected I'll thoroughly analyze my database at a few stakes under different rake models.
2) Discussing other possible ways to redistribute VIP rewards/other PokerStars expenditures.
3) Most important are concrete and transparent changes to either the rake or VPP multiplier or FPP multiplier.
4) All rake/VIP changes should be announced by mid Dec and only count towards the following year. Mid year changes are extremely undesirable.
5) Agreed that dealt is not fair and based on current research prefer WTA, but this might not even be up for debate."
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by chisness
Professional experience:
-Spent last year working on startup that launched recently and has hundreds of registered users. Most relevant is that I spent a lot of time creating extensive financial projections that went into our business plan, that resulted in raising 6 figures. Have also dealt with investors and others in a professional environment.
Other poker experience:
-Have coached over 10 players over the past few years and have been coached by 2. I've been very happy with all of my dealings with other poker players in these scenarios and expect to have a similar experience with the group that comes together for these meetings.
Note on being midstakes SNE:
-I absolutely understand that high volume higher stakes players are not entitled to any special changes and my focus will be on getting the overall best changes for the site as a whole, while using my experience in playing millions of midstakes hands to be a voice (and data analyst) for this group of players. I understand that there are many scenarios where the best changes for midstakes players are indirect and happen from improving the lower stakes rake structure.
Most important issues for the meeting:
-Right now Stars offers higher VPP multipliers at the lowest stakes (NL2 (10x), NL5 (8.5x), and NL10 (7x)) instead of reduced rake. I think:
1) Switching to reduced rake instead of increased VPP multipliers seems a bit better for (a) players because money flows up much better than VPPs and (b) PokerStars because they'll be more easily compared (and seen as superior) to a competitor's rake scheme (though I'm sure they prefer giving away the often unused VPPs more than money).
2) Instead of doing 0.5% reduction across the board, we should seriously consider doing tiered rake that increases in % and/or cap as stakes go up. Rake will always be higher in bb/100 at lower stakes, but making it less of a drastic increase at some of those stakes is very important. When almost nobody is/can win in a certain game, something needs to be fixed.
3) I'm wiling to consider/analyze all options, not just the above.
-I've spent plenty of weeks in school and poker grinding insanely hard (eg nearly 150k vpps in a week) and am willing and excited to put in that effort (+ a bit more sleep) to this meeting, both before and during.
-I'm well equipped in background and past experience and have logged and continue to log TONS of hours on PokerStars, so I think I'm the right guy to go.
|
----------------------
--UCLA Deity—
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...ke-o8-1147237/
"**(my qualifications/about me at bottom)**
I want us in the O8 community to have all of our voice and action in the discussion (we've paid for it!)."
"For the most part the O8 community is unaware of the extent we are being screwed. O8 has a high % of it's player base coming from the "recreational" side of the poker spectrum. Historically, these types of players are inclined to be more indifferent to rake-rape. At least this is my impression. Second, because of the fractured nature of O8 (splitting into NLO8, PLO8, and LO8) we don't have a lot of "pros" hailing to one game type or stake with a unified message. Without a big group we don't command the same attention that NLHE gets when they mass sit-out in protest. If nothing else, the groups action furthered the dialogue between the SNE's and Pokerstars. And I now ask your support so I can present our concerns and ideas which will hopefully lead to some meaningful change in the rake paid in O8 games.
NLHE has completely dominated the discussion of rake and has crafted a system that favors them substantially over NLO8 and PLO8 even at identical stakes. Hopefully, some of you can post some pics of your LO8 rake paid statistics; that way we can assess whether LO8 is getting the finger from LHE at equal stakes (my guess is yes).
The best argument we can present, is to SHOW Pokerstars why modifying O8 rake structure, making improvements to promotions, and making other changes is actually in their best business interest! Once we've done that, its a downhill battle.
Qualifications/About Me
- In 2011, played 800,000+ hands of NLO8/PLO8; 700,000+ of my hands were in cash games. 0 losing months
- My Pokerstars s/n=ergoaxe (pink pony avatar) I'm a Supernova.
- I've played a good number of hands at ALL stakes (25PLO8, 25NLO8, 50PLO8, 50NLO8, 100PLO8, 100NLO8, 200PLO8, 200NLO8, 400PLO8, 400NLO8, 600NLO8) and table sizes (6 max and Full Ring). I have a good understanding of how even a small tweak to the rake cap or structure can positively or negatively impact different stakes and game type.
- I'll convincingly represent the views and interests of O8 (all three game types LO8, NLO8, PLO8) while talking/negotiating with Pokerstars. Hopefully we can use this thread to discuss the math behind what needs changing and what our most optimal demands should be."
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by --UCLA Deity--
Good day everyone,
Fish enjoy -and are attracted by- the thrill of different poker variants. Thus, it's in all NLHE and PLO players interest to see Pokerstars continue to have games run like 8game, Omaha8, and Razz.
Also, much like a doctor wouldn't expect a teacher to lobby for health reform, the O8 community understands that our representation must be our own and not NLHE and PLO. Further, it ensures that the third largest game has fair representation and isn't disenfranchised.
Much like the uniformity of species in an ecosystem DECREASES the health and stability of all the animals in it - if LO8, PLO8, and NLO8 are allowed to die, NLHE and PLO games will be NEGATIVELY impacted.
O8/mixed games cast a unique kind of bait out into the world that catches a special kind of fish - specifically, one that would never bite if NLHE or PLO were all that was dangling from Pokerstars hooks. Casting as many fishing lines and variety of baits (LO8, PLO8, NLO8, Stud hi/lo, etc.) into the potential market brings in the most new players for EVERYONE.
My laptop battery would die before I could type all the ways which the O8 games are being rake-raped. Simply, PLO8 and NLO8 are paying SIGNIFICANTLY more at EVERY stake and table size than NLHE tables. Does it cost more to shuffle 4 cards instead of two?
Also, we pay millions of dollars a year in rake...yet where are our promotions? Imagine playing a live 1/2 game with a bad beat jackpot drop. However, instead of dropping our dollar to our jackpot fund, Pokerstar's tosses our $1 on top of another game...which that table uses as dead money in the games next pot to spice up action. A criminal wouldn't look at that and claim it to be the "fairest policy for All".
I beseech you by the very definition of the word fairness to allow O8 to present our own case. If we are allowed to perish - where do you think Pokerstars will look to replace the lost revenue?
The TL;DR of my suggestions and improvements: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28...ke-o8-1147237/
Qualifications/About Me
-In 2011, I played 800,000+ hands of NLO8/PLO8; 700,000+ of my hands were in cash games. 0 losing months
-My Pokerstars s/n=ergoaxe (pink pony avatar) I'm a Supernova.
-I've played a good number of hands at ALL the small/mid NLO8 and PLO8 stakes (25PLO8, 25NLO8, 50PLO8, 50NLO8, 100PLO8, 100NLO8, 200PLO8, 200NLO8, 400PLO8, 400NLO8, 600NLO8) and table sizes (6 max and Full Ring). This leaves me with an unbiased and solid understanding of how even a small tweak to the rake cap or structure can positively or negatively impact a variety of O8 stakes and game types.
Kind Regards,
--UCLA Deity-- |
Two Plus Two
Linear Mode
