First premise I believe most will agree with is that normally while a player is entitled to a clear view of what another player has in his stack behind.

Now you he question. P1 asks dealer to what P2 has behind (unbet). Which is "worse" the dealer handling P2s chips and getting an exact count or dealer doing P1s work and estimating P2 stack?

Dealer only has to give you the amount of the chips in play. Asking how much someone has behind doesn't mean you'll get an answer.

Guesstimating is much worse than actual counting.

Dealer makes a bad guess, Player 2 doesn't correct him, Player 1 acts, error discovered, solid excrement hits the fan.

I believe a player should be entitled to a count. So I am not bothered if that happens. I do not ever want a dealer estimating anything.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

I'm with psand, I wish the rule were that a player is entitled to a count. In some rooms he is, in which case that is what the dealer should do.

In rooms where he is not, then dealer should neither count nor estimate.

With one exception: if opponent is unwilling or unable to keep his chips in tidy stacks of normal size, with large denom chips in front or on top, then either opponent needs to provide a count, or dealer/floor should provide one upon request. If bills are allowed to play, then player/dealer/floor should be required to count those as well.

We don't count, but if a player asks another for a count and the guy voluntarily gives an estimate but it's pretty much a bad estimate (whether purposefully misleading or just wrong), I'll say "That's not quite right" or "It's more than that" or something similar.

Dealer can answer about the chips in play [Bets/Raises]. However, the dealer can force the player to make their highest denomination chips visible to the player in the hand if, for some reason, they are hard for that player to see. More often than not, you will get some other player at the table that will give a guesstimation [They aren't supposed to but it can hurry the game along so I'm not wholly opposed to it when it happens].



If all the chips are in play and the player asks for a count: If I can throw out a quick guesstimation that I know will be close while starting to move towards counting it, I'll state it is around a certain number. This is pretty easy if the player has his stacks easy to count and sometimes that's all the player will need. If player is still uncertain, I'll do an exact count.




Not sure what you are implying. If you are saying a player should force a dealer to give an exact count of a person's stack every time they ask, that would be absurd and probably be highly abused by dickhead players and severely slow the game down. I wouldn't be too opposed to allowing a dealer to give an visual estimation if the stacks are easy to read. Of course, rooms should then enforce rules that don't allow players to barber pole their chips when they are actively in a hand or keep their stacks intentionally uneven.

Dealers have a responsibility to count bets. A player has the responsibility to keep his stack, especially large denomination chips, visible.

If player A would like a count of player B's stack, it is up to player A, and no one else, to do it.

This part of the thread of course brings up another pet peeve of live poker.

"I'll put you all in"

Just go all-in yourself! No confusion that way.

That is exactly what I mean. You may be surprised to learn that there are rooms where this is the rule, and it doesn't cause any of the doomsday scenarios that people here predict (the game will slow to a crawl; people will abuse it constantly).

I would never want a dealer to give a visual estimation unless it is a smallish stack of chips and he is absolutely sure, because there is no training or process to doing it, and if he's wrong it can cause major problems.

This is true in most rooms. It is also something wrong with poker today IMO, not something that should be celebrated and protected.

Logistics (i.e. slowing the game down) and history aside, there is no good reason why it should be true that visually counting another players stack should be part of the skill of playing poker IMO. There is nothing really skillful to doing this, just visually demanding.

Online poker doesn't require this (mostly because it can't), and I don't think it in any way causes the game to be less skillful or fun, at least not for that reason.

No one should even be answering (dealer or other players). A clear view is really all he is entitled to but it's common practice for every player not in the hand to start shouting out stack sizes. A clear view doesn't mean an exact count.

Is this your belief or opinion? Is it also the rule where you deal or play? If not, you would choose to impose your opinion over the rule?

I am mildly surprised. I thought the clear view, neat stacks, large denom in front on top but must count yourself rules were pretty consistent everywhere. I have never played anywhere that I know or saw a written rule such that a count by the dealer was allowed. But where such room exist, I still see an issue. I don't want the dealer Wong put in a position where the perception he is not impartial. If he is guessing or estimating then he could show favoratism and more likely would accused of such. Otoh, I really don't want anyone handling my chips. Too easy for someone to palm a coulple. How could this be resolved? Easiest way is simply keep the dealer out of it.

It is both my belief and my opinion that a player should be entitled to a count. Note the word should. I do not believe a player in entitled to a count in most rooms. But I believe that is a bad rule.

In my room a player is not entitled to a count and I go by the rule.

I don't expect a dealer to not follow the rooms rule. But on this rule because it's a bad rule I am not upset if a dealer gave a count.

While I agree about dealers unnecessarily touching chips ... I would only have the dealer do it if the player refused to count his owen chips (this once was the rule in my room but it has been changed)

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

Here in Southern California, the prevailing rule is you get a count. I like that rule.

But if the rule is that the chips need to be visible to estimate, the dealer shouldn't estimate for you, but SHOULD confirm the chips are visible so that you can estimate yourself.

If we are going to say that dealers have to count unbet chips, then why not also make it so they have to count the pot when a player asks as well? It seems to me that this notion of players being entitled to exact numbers is a crossover from online poker, where people want to be exact in their odds calculations and bets. Although you can also just push a button that says half pot and it will do all the work for you.

I remember Doyle on HSP onetime commenting when a young player asked another young player what he was playing, and the player answered. DOyle said that he never answers that question and never says anything at all. So I doubt the idea of being entitled to an exact count is an "old school" notion.

If you can see the high denomination chips and the stacks are neat, that should be enough, IMO. you don't have to have exact to the dollar counts to figure out what to do. And I've never heard in years of playing live any players complain about not being able to get an exact count or push for a rule change.

just imagine that online rooms dont provide the stack sizes of other players, or even just a range of x+, y+ or some other bs, chaos all over the place imo, a count should be given upon request at the most, or even an enforced rule of displaying your high denomination chips in the front always.

do you really not see the difference?

A player in a hand can know exactly how much is in a pot simply by paying attnetion. Random amounts don't plop into the pot. Every bet a player can know how much it is ... and all he has to do is add them up.

In the case of how much is in a stack a player has no way to know exactly how much is in a stack unless they actually count them. While for most instances an estimate is enough for a player to make a decision there are times when an exact amount could be needed. The one that comes immediately to mind is the situation in which a player facing a bet is concerned about a short stack going all-in behind him and whether that would reopen the betting to the original bettor (or in sizing ones bet with the same consideration in a multiway pot) sometimes it may be clear to a player estimating but if its a close call you can't necessarily tell without an exact count.

So I've already given you an example where an exact count can be crucial.

When my room's rule allowed for a count .... we never actually had to count. For the most part a player asking would be satisfied with a clear view or the player being aked would give an estimate or sometimes an exact count. The exception was back when cash played, I once had too call a floor because a player refused to count his bills.

So you had a rule that no one used, and your room did away with it. Seems to me to support the idea that the game can move along just fine without that rule.

dealer going to count them is terrible but you can stop them

A lot of poker players are too lazy to do this.

And, if you rely on the dealer or the other player to count his stack, if an incorrect number is given. But, if the burden is on you to count another player's stack, if you make a math error, you only have yourself to blame, as it should be.

Maybe a player should be entitled to an exact count if his opponent does not keep his stacks tidy enough to allow for a reasonable estimate as a way of inducing players to be neater.

Reasonable estimation of a player's stack is all a player needs. To achieve this, rooms need to start having rules that force players to keep their chips in countable stacks. Not forcing the dealers to count down every stack upon request, which can also mess up the amount of chips that are already in play and just further unnecessarily slows the game down even more. Start penalizing players that constantly barber pole their chips while in a hand and put their chips in uncountable stacks. Enforce the rules about keeping your largest denomination chips out in front. The dealer is there to run the game, not baby players that can't figure out that a guy with 3 stacks of 1ks, 2 stacks, of 500s, and 5 stacks of 100s [With a few chips left over] has a little over 90,000 in chips. Now, make a decision and stop pretending you are actually doing "pot odds" math in your head.

The issue isn't whether the game can move along fine without the rule. If that is the case then the game can move along fine without the rule that you aren't entitled to a count.

The issue why do you think that a player should not be entitled to know exactly how much risk he is facing?

Don;t tell me that he only needs a rough estimation. Tell me why he shouldn't be entitled to that information.

In fact if you think there is a reason why he isn't entitled to know that .... why is he entitled to view of the chips at all?

Nice topic .. I think most rooms know the rule but 'lean' towards not enforcing it unless a player really knows the rule. It's almost just a common courtesy, but I can guarantee that most players would be surprised at the actual rule.

One of the background issues here is that the asking player may just want a reaction to the question. Forcing a count would potentially provide a longer period of time where the player can be observed. As a user of live tells, I think it gives off information in both directions. Even leaning in to get a look at a stack during a hand is 'information'.

I'm purposely a PITB when I play 1/2 by keeping my stacks at $75. I'm known for it in my regular rooms but it's always interesting to see who's paying attention when I travel.

I don't think an exact count is necessary, but I do think that some seats are tougher for viewing than others and deserve some consideration. Asking about 'large chips' or 'bills' should be given more attention as well as those players who keep 2-4 'skyscrapers' for stacks or uneven stacks.

I have one casino reg who always keeps his green/black chips 'in line' along the rail to the left of his reds. If he's in 5 or 6 and you are in 3 or 4 you can't see them. Whenever he raises I constantly ask him about those chips just so the table knows about them and what he's doing. I don't know if he's actually trying to hide them, but it's just one of those things you need to pay attention to if you are a regular player.

On a slightly different 'chip' viewing note (maybe topic worthy). I don't really like it when a Dealer 'automatically' pulls in the opening bets during a street of action when a player is considering a raise. Players have the right to ask for it, no problem, but it can give off a visual that a player really does have some good calling odds when there's a pile of chips in the middle. Watching Dealers do this really helped me with my bet to pot ratios in order to get better value. I think a lot of players really lose track of the pot size on the Turn and just 'see' the real $$ value of most bets. GL

Agree, dealers should not pull in bets unless asked to do so by the current player.

Putting your chips in stacks of 75 is annoying. In my room, this puts you on my **** list immediately, and you don't get the benefit of the doubt on future issues.