The rule has always been if a card is dealt out prematurely, the card comes back, even if the guy voluntarily folds. This stops people from seeing free flops, so the question shouldn't be about how long it took to deal it out, but about whether we treat it as one premature street or 3 streets, and I think it should be handled the same way.

But the dealing of the board has to be treated as action. Its an absurdity to say that a player who wishes to retain the right to act loses it if players act after him but not if he sits with his thumb up his ass while the board is dealt.

That is a rule, yes.

I don't see how that follows, but is this your way of saying there is no amount of opportunity to speak up that you think is too much?

of course there is, but again, I can see a dealer dealing out the whole board before the guy speaks up, whether he was waiting on purpose or not. It's a dealer error, he shouldn't get his hand killed because he "didn't stop the dealer in time".

Some dealers deal very fast. If you want to say that burning a card before the flop is the first unambiguous signal that the dealer has missed action, I bet you'd have less than three seconds with some dealers.

There's obviouslt some time limit to speak up but I think talking about killing a hand - which is the second most drastic measure a floor can take after voiding a hand - is a little premature.

How long does it take go say "stop" how many times can you say stop between the dealer first burning (assuming the dealer didn't do the table tap first) and putting up a flop.... burning another card, putting up a turn, burning, and putting up a river?

Is there some point along the way where we say the player didn't have a reasonable chance to speak up .... yes. But the case at hand does not raise that issue.

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Let's seriously consider this question. Let's say it takes half a second to react and another second to say it, and the dealer gets half a second to react. How far along the board can a fast dealer get in two seconds?

It doesn't matter how far the dealer goes once the player speaks up. The player speaking up is the issue. If the player says stop and the action continues nothing that happened after stop matters. (Obviously if the player doesn't speak loud and clear there is an issue about whether what he did was sufficient but let's assume a loud and clear "stop")

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I am open to a lot of your perspective (though ultimately I don't share it), but this part is 100% wrong. The fact that it was a dealer error does not relieve you of your obligation to stop action behind you. Not saying something on purpose because you think you can shoot an angle on it is especially egregious.

Ive seen something slightly similar but heads up. (Betting round not completed, dealer thinks players are all in, deals whole board lightning fast)

I know it sounds hard to believe but some dealers are just that fast.

Floor backed up action and deck was shuffled.

Funny side note, it was QQ vs AA, and on the first board there was a Q. Guy wanted to keep that board.

Lol live poker.

I assume he was the one who hadn't acted yet?

If the flop action was complete but not everyone all in, it could happen
because they are expecting a flop and the turn/river can come real quick.

Here the flop action isn't complete, no way the flop, turn and river come out too fast for someone to speak up.

of course there was time for him to speak up, the question is what should happen now. Should a bad recreational player be held accountable and punished for not preventing a dealer's major error?

Not everyone is as sharp as us (or most of us for the most part). Most people don't even know where the button should be when asked.

No. You're looking to assign major blame to the dealer in a spot where many of us see the blame to have shifted at least enough to no longer belong to him majorly.

I'm still curious how much opportunity you'd require for the player to be at least equally to blame. Seems like it would have to be an egregious dealer error to move the needle even slightly.

If the dealer says "Hey Player B, I'ma deal out a full board now unless it's not cool with you" and then deals out a full board when met with the null response, is that the same as an early burn and turn? Because it's like any premature card?

How many people were at the table? All the players were to blame, but the official fault is on the dealer.

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Yes. He's in a game for money. He needs to pay attention at least enough to know when a full board is laid out before he acts. It doesn't take much. If he was that into the hand and the hand was that valuable he wouldn't have somehow been daydreaming through it long enough to let the whole board show. At some point that is not an excuse. Otherwise you end up with the player acting on information not available to his opponents when they acted on the same bet. That's an angle shot.

IMO when you're at the table you're accountable for your own money, and it is your obligation to speak up and contest any issue quickly. "I get special circumstances because I couldn't be bothered to pay attention" is just insufficient, no matter the skill level. B's hand is dead.

We are not holding the player accountable for not preventing the dealer error. We are holding the player accountable for his own error which was his failure to point out the error at a time before it was compounded.


If I go to sleep on the highway and a distracted driver doesn't see me and runs over me .... who is at fault? Its both of us .... me for sleeping on a highway and the driver for not paying attention to the road. We don't have to say only one person is to blame.

according to the insurance company you were 100% at fault.

What info does he have to act on that his opponents did not have?

If they allow him to act after the entire misdealt board, he now knows 5 cards that are available in the deck.

The cards are all getting shuffled back into the deck.

Yep.

And are we going to flashy thing him so he forgets what player A's cards are?

Yes, but he still has knowledge of 5 of the cards in the deck that may come out; the other 2 players didn't have any knowledge of what cards were live.

all the active players have the same information