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Villain mucks heroes cards Villain mucks heroes cards

02-02-2016 , 05:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by youtalkfunny
Protecting the muck means don't let people take cards OUT of it. You keep your hand over it so can sense when someone is reaching for it.
To expound on this, you're worried about the players in Seats 1 and 2, and maybe 3. None of these players are involved in OP's story.

ETA: ...and it's the last thing you're focused on, while your brain juggles nine other tasks.
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02-02-2016 , 07:06 PM
what a messed up situation.
I would have flattened the V in this spot.

solutions i see.
-expose cards straight away when all in
-pot awarded to H
-warning (maybe) for standing up
-instant ban for mucking another players cards

game moves on
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02-02-2016 , 07:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by youtalkfunny


So take it from the World's Greatest Muck Protector...you can't blame a guy for being unprepared for something that NONE OF US has ever seen before.
I would extend this same thought to the player. I can't blame him for being unprepared (whether standing or sitting and regardless of the size of his card protector) for something NONE OF US has ever seen before.
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02-02-2016 , 07:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyfrassy
I would extend this same thought to the player. I can't blame him for being unprepared (whether standing or sitting and regardless of the size of his card protector) for something NONE OF US has ever seen before.
Player did absolutely nothing wrong here. His hand was protected, he was completely in the right. I would also add that if this situation has not been brought to the attention of the room manager, it absolutely should be. The player's behavior was inexcusable. The floor's terrible ruling, also inexcusable.

q/q
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02-02-2016 , 10:22 PM
le cards

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02-03-2016 , 01:15 AM
^^ Notice in the video her cards were completely unprotected, no chip or card protector on top of her cards, which is really bad when you are in the 9/10 seat next to the dealer.

Even the slightest experienced player will have heard dealers give special warnings to the 1 & 9/10 seats to place a chip on their cards so the dealer doesn't accidentally sweep them into the muck, which is exactly what happened here. That was brutal though, but she definitely did not protect her hand at all.

Anyway a dealer making a bad mistake is one thing, a player reaching and purposely mucking an opponents cards at showdown is quite another.
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02-03-2016 , 01:31 AM
I witnessed a situation where a drunk in seat 7 mucked the chip protected hand of seat 6 by mistake, leaving seat 3 the only live hand. Seat 3 was awarded the pot, seat 7 was racked up and sent home, and seat 6 was pissed as hell with no recourse. Concur that it's hard to protect against the completely unexpected.
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02-03-2016 , 02:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by grenzen
If everybody starts protecting there cards more, it's going to slow the game down, create more confusion for the dealers and players to follow the action.
More time is wasted in arguments/decisions after hands get incorrectly mucked than the extra time taken by people who bend over backwards to make sure their hand isn't mucked incorrectly.
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02-03-2016 , 02:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caputop
More time is wasted in arguments/decisions after hands get incorrectly mucked than the extra time taken by people who bend over backwards to make sure their hand isn't mucked incorrectly.
but hands get incorrectly mucked about once in never

I'm not an expert on this subject by any means but I probably played 150,000 hands of live poker by now and not only I've never seen a dealer muck a hand with a chip on top of it, I haven't even heard of anything like that
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02-03-2016 , 05:00 AM
clearly he should get the pot. but in a casino a floor person rules as he pleases and doesnt always rule correctly and usually rules in his friends favor or what will make the least controversy for him.

learn to hold onto your cards as they can get fouled many ways and declared dead.
stop the showboating with the standing up walking around and making noise like so many do now. not saying you do this op.

hold your hand and show it in turn. that is how poker is played if you want to not get screwed every once in awhile.
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02-03-2016 , 08:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFly
Honestly there is really no need for analogies. The act itself is egregious enough.

Villain was heads-up at showdown and reached over and physically mucked his sole opponents live protected cards before Hero could reveal them. That should automatically disqualify Villain from any claim to the pot, along with a ban of some time (Suit said 60 days).
Agreed. Strawmans and what-ifs are irrelevant... this situation is clear as day. Villain is out of hand.

If there are two other players in the pot (one with cards, one without) I see the situation being a bit more challenging for the floor. But that's a different situation, the ruling doesn't need to cover all possibilities.
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02-03-2016 , 11:17 AM
True, it is more complicated with other players. Then you may need to debate protected or unprotected, whisper hands into ears, etc. But even then, one principle should come first: V is disqualified and forfeits any claim to the pot due to his actions. Sort out the rest after that.

Of course, in the heads up case, the outcome is simple: V's hand is dead and the pot goes to H. Any decision where V gets any portion of the pot is a travesty, pro-wrestling type of decision.

And name the casino.
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02-03-2016 , 12:43 PM
many casinos floor people get to keep tips. and certain players give them alot of tips. which way do you think they will rule?

that is why as a player you have to go above and beyond what you may think is normal to protect your best interests in a game.

ive played longer than almost all around here and never that i can remember had any of these things go against me.
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02-03-2016 , 12:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha Fish
but hands get incorrectly mucked about once in never

I'm not an expert on this subject by any means but I probably played 150,000 hands of live poker by now and not only I've never seen a dealer muck a hand with a chip on top of it, I haven't even heard of anything like that
A hand with a chip on it has nothing to do with it. I've seen that happen, I've seen hands without a chip mucked, I've read this thread.

****, I've seen upcards in stud get mucked. I spend about 1 minute per session making my sure my cards don't get mucked with methods beyond "put a chip on it" and my cards have never gotten mucked, and I have spent hours of my life watching arguments over cards that get mucked.

It's very simple, this hand shouldn't have been mucked, this guy should have won the pot, but he didn't, and he could have avoided this entire situation very simply. That's all people are saying.

Your cards are the ticket to getting the money. Whatever the rules are, however ridiculous the situation is, it's a lot easier to get the pot if your cards are out of the muck, and it's a lot harder for your opponent to get the pot if their cards are in the muck, so spend the tiny amount of effort to keep your cards out of the muck and don't end up like this OP. It isn't that hard to prevent yourself from getting a bad floor ruling in a situation like this, so just do that.
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02-03-2016 , 12:59 PM
idk I just prefer to play in places where dealers never muck hands with chips on top of them and where floor rulings in the case like that will 100% go my way

but if you have no choice but to play in a joke of a room, then you're probably right
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02-03-2016 , 01:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha Fish
idk I just prefer to play in places where dealers never muck hands with chips on top of them and where floor rulings in the case like that will 100% go my way
Where is this mythical place?
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02-03-2016 , 01:27 PM
I think we can all agree that OP could have sat in his seat with his hand on his cards until the pot is pushed one way or another. I think we can also all agree that we have seen people stand up next to their chair during an all-in, do unconventional things, and let their cards out of their sight while nothing bad happens.

None of that changes what is essentially a bad ruling. Once Villain touched another player's live hand and pushed it into the muck, he forfeits all rights to any part of the pot if it's heads up. Don't see how it could possibly be different in this exact scenario as described.

Also, OP needs to out the room where he was playing, because this is preposterous and everyone here should know.
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02-03-2016 , 01:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nwolfe


Also, OP needs to out the room where he was playing, because this is preposterous and everyone here should know.
So, was this one bad ruling by one Floor or was this part of a pattern of bad rulings by the cardroom staff?

I have seen bad, unfair, preferential, and just plain idiotic rulings in the best cardrooms.
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02-03-2016 , 01:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danielsc
Flop comes 4-3-4 all different suits. He goes all in and I call, putting me all in. I cap my cards with a $1 chip and stand up from my seat
Villain is clearly in the wrong and should not get pot, any of it, I just want to say that first.

But ffs, next time just turn your hand over once the all-in & call have taken place, would've solved all of this. I don't understand the cash game reluctance to show your hand when it's all-in/call scenarios. Are you really concerned about mucking your two black aces in case they are no good so the table doesn't know you had two black aces? C'mon, just turn your hand over when action is complete in all-in/call, saves so many potential headaches, like this one.
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02-03-2016 , 01:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngusThermopyle
So, was this one bad ruling by one Floor or was this part of a pattern of bad rulings by the cardroom staff?

I have seen bad, unfair, preferential, and just plain idiotic rulings in the best cardrooms.
OP insinuated that this is a pattern of behavior by at LEAST this singular person that is allowed to go unchecked by the players, dealers (minus the one who happened to be dealing this down), and floor staff.

I got the impression from OP that the room was at the very least much too flippant about game integrity.
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02-03-2016 , 01:51 PM
Standing up while the run out comes is kind of douchey , not feeling as bad for op now lol
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02-03-2016 , 05:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Didace
Where is this mythical place?
not that hard to figure out
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02-03-2016 , 07:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules22
Standing up while the run out comes is kind of douchey , not feeling as bad for op now lol
It's OK, because standing up made it easier for him to pace back and forth with his hands on his head, yelling 'One time, baby'.
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02-03-2016 , 08:21 PM
I'm not sure why people think someone with the audacity to do this would be stopped by hero sitting down and holding onto his cards.
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02-03-2016 , 08:34 PM
I'm not sure why you'd think otherwise.
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