This is still a raise.

This is still a raise. Merely adding the 5000 chip and doing nothing else, is a call. These are two different actions.

I may be getting confused here about what you're saying, but IMO and IME pulling back all your SB chips and throwing out an oversize chip is a call, the same as if you throw out the oversize chip first then take back the SB, the same as if you throw out the oversize chip and do nothing more (you will get your earlier SB back along with any change owed from the oversize chip call). All this assumes your SB is exact and is not already including oversize chips which are enough to call already.

If limped to in the BB, since you're not facing a bet, pulling back your BB and throwing out an oversize chip is a raise to the full chip amount.

When I play I use the following routine:
- I put out one chip when I am calling (even if it is an undersized chip) then I complete the bet if I need more chips.
- I put out two or more chips when I am raising unless I don't have the proper denominations, in which case I announce "raise to X" before putting out chips.

It avoids situations like this where house rules may vary. Also, in cases where the house doesn't have a rule that covers the situation (like this one) you are not beholden to whatever random decision the Floor might make.

I had a very similar case ruled against me. My intent was never an issue. I wish the Dealer has said "raise" and we played out the hand that way...

You are not getting confused. What they (apparently including Matt Savage) are saying is that this situation is supposed to be ruled a raise.

Dinesh,

Think about it like this. The SB doesn't have to do anything to call other than toss out the oversized chip. But if they do, as in taking back one chip, multiple chips or all the chips, then it's a raise.

The same for the BB. To check, the BB doesn't have to do anything. Once they pull back any number of chips and toss in an oversized chip, it's a raise.

Hope that helps.

Which situation do you mean? I also agree that the OP (which is the only one Savage responded to, in this case at least) should be ruled a raise, though I would be fine if it is ruled a call too, because the written rule isn't precise enough to be clear. But I don't agree it's a raise in the situation DCJ responded to (pulling back all chips and putting out a single oversize).

It helps but I don't agree with the reasoning. Throwing out the oversize chip may be all he has to do, but it's far from obvious to new players that that is the case, that's why the rule exists in the first place. It's also not tautalogical that because it's all he would have to do, that he can't do the same a ton in another way. Put another way, it is sufficient, but not necessary.

It could easily be that the player wants or needs change, and pulls back his original 2 chips first with that in mind. Forcing him into a raise here seems bad.

I have real trouble getting behind a rule that says if he throws out the oversize chip first, whether or not he takes the other two back it's a call, but if he takes back the other two first, then puts out the oversize chip it's a raise. They should both be ruled the same, or if not, if anything they should be reversed.

The BB situation is totally different, because they are not facing a bet so the oversized chip rule will never apply. I agree with the interpretation in that case.

Some of us don't consider Matt Savage authoritative even if we happen to agree with him on this rule.

I'm with Dinesh on this one. I'm not aware of a rule that allows a player to remove his entire small blind and toss in an oversized chip without that being a call. IMO this fits squarely in the single oversized chip rule.

I don't disagree with that (assuming as he did that the small blind is not an oversized chip already enough to constitute a call). But the issue is not about a player pulling back their entire SB.

If you would like confirmation of how the TDA rules in a situation like this:

https://twitter.com/savagepoker

I know. The issue in the OP should clearly be a raise imo. I was commenting on and agreeing with Dinesh about the derail regarding removing the entire small blind.

Taking back all of the chips from the SB and tossing in an oversize chip is only a call. Always.

.

I agree. In this case the player didn't do any of that. He put out a single chip and expected to get change back, as the oversize chip rule says he will.

Let me simplify it. He doesn't have enough small chips to cover the BB/bet. The only way for him to call is with an oversize chip.

I agree.

However, Matt just confirmed that, if the entire small blind is pulled back, and then an oversized chip is pushed forward, this is a call.

This does make sense.

My problem is that I have just been trying to keep up with how Matt thinks.

The best solution is to be clear with your actions, and to not allow for your actions to be misinterpreted.

Okay. Now, the thread is closed.

If you have chips out there and throw in a larger chip, it's a clear raise to the amount on the table.

If he had taken back all of the chips left out for this blind, THEN threw out the 5,000 chip without announcing raise, then it is a clear call.

You would have to announce "call" then, if there are multiple chips out there already.

No, it's not. I hope you are not really a dealer.

Seeing as how both the dealers and the floors in this thread are more or less evenly divided, it doesn't really matter. It's just a fact of real life.

It proves my live poker rule: never get into a ruling situation if possible, because you truly never know what can happen. There's no such thing as consistency in poker rulings - not in any room, and not even by an individual floor.

Stay squarely within the lines, and always protect yourself.

Truer words were never spoken.

It is a raise. No debate. He made it 5300, it was not a single chip. No different than blinds being 600/1200 and the SB not having a 1k chip, to make it easier on the dealer he puts in 5200 without saying anything, it's a raise. In this case with no verbal action it is multiple chips as you cannot imply change to be made.

There is a rule that makes it very clear this would be just a call.

Just say "Raise".

Of course once the MP goes all-in, it is quite clear that he has interpreted the action as a raise.

Yes, easy solution, BUT remember it doesn't look cool enough to some players to even one word verbalize your intent. When something adverse happens once in a while they end up looking less cool.