Call all day, but you obviously can not change the ruling once you have a fold, an all-in, and a call behind the action in question.

Edit - This actually depends on what the SB did to "add" th chip. If he just threw it out by itself, it's a call. If the SB took the t5000 chip, picked up the three t100 chips, and threw them out together, it's a raise.

It's funny because SB's actions are in between two clear rulings:
- if SB pulls back all his chips and puts out a 5K chips it's a call
- if SB pulls back all his chips and puts out a 5K chip + 3 100 chips it's a raise

If we grant the 2nd then I'd argue that his action is closer to that scenario than it is to the first and so we can call this a raise.

At any rate once dealer announces raise and BB and MP act on a raise we have to treat it like a raise. And definitely a KITN to MP

Not in Uniden32's room. Unless he didn't mean that the combination of removing one chip and adding another chip constitutes a raise in his opinion. I always thought removing all chips and replacing them with another was a call, that's why I asked.

FWIW, I also think that should be ruled a call, but unlike him I don't make rulings in a poker room.

There are 2 separate issues going on. First is the actual question of whether this was a legitimate raise or not. Second is what to do in this particular incident.

The 2nd is the easiest to answer. Action was announced and accepted, so action stays. It was announced as a raise, MP went all in, and lost. This should stand.

Now for the first part. I think pulling back a chip does not constitute any action. Therefore, this seems like a oversized chip rule situation, where this could be ruled just a call by the letter of the law.

KITN to MP who tried to angleshoot his way out of it once he lost.

What he meant was that removing one chip and adding another chip constitutes a raise only because there were more than one chip out there to begin with. There were 4 chips and he removed one and added one. Uniden would never call it a raise if he only had one chip out there, removed it, and then added a different chip.

The idea here is that having 400 out there and taking 100 away and adding 5,000 makes it more likely that it was intended to be a raise. Otherwise wouldn't he have removed all 400? Some people are weird tho and do even more weird **** so that is why the rule is the way it is and when making a ruling we generally go by the book.

Part of the issue and confusion is mistakes were made by every person mentioned in the thread, and hopefully everyone involved will learn to correct their error for better future results.

MP error #1 - limp, shove. Ugh seriously?
SB error - Did not verbalize intention
Dealer possible error - Made a ruling that is at least questionable
BB possible error - If it feels qusetionable, I would ask for a floor ruling prior to folding. Unless of course your holdings are total rags at the bottom of your range and you are glad to dump them.
MP error #2 - If you were unsure if that was a call or a raise pre-flop, should request a floor ruling. If not, Error #3 - keep it to your self after the hand, and remember the BB would have stayed in with ATC and how much extra variance does that add to your equity split as the board rolls out.

Thoughts on rules - I mostly understand the single overchip rule, but in this case, in full true technicality, its not a single chip -- its a 5k chip plus 3 under chips after manipulating the original 4 under chips that were there. Isn't that the same thing as pulling all the chips off the table and then putting out the same 4 chips with 1x5k + 3x100. Or is it literally more important to see a chip actually move from in front of the line, to behind the line, back out to in front of the line?

You never count chips already out there. Except when the player fiddles with them. Maybe. Sometimes. By custom, not (usually) by actual written rule.

As mentioned, the rule is not well written for this specific circumstance.

It wasn't one chip. It was four. If he had pulled all four back then put out one, that would be one chip. He pulled back one, and added one to the three remaining. This is what was unusual and caused the confusion.

dealer should have ruled it a call... but as played action accepted. no recourse after u dont like the run out. are we to guess at players intentions maybe he just wanted 4500 change to make it easier... if u remove one chip it is not enough for a call, wihtout verbal that should have been ruled a call.

There is lots of confusion in this thread.

The TDA rules as follows:

If the small blind would have just tossed forward the 5000 (oversized) chip on top of the four 100 chips that were in front of him (in the pot), this would have been a call.

But when the small blind removes any or all of the chips that are in front of him, and then tosses forward an oversized chip, the amount of the bet or raise is the total amount of the chip(s) that are then in front of him.

If you disagree, or if you have any questions, ask Matt Savage - https://twitter.com/savagepoker

If you remove one 100 chip there is still 5200...

I would have ruled it a call had MP brought it up immediately. Once he raises the window to complain closes.

Note that if MP really thought SB was calling, he can't raise.

Jigsaw is correct. Based on chip manipulation this is a raise all day long. Chip manipulation has been a hot topic over the last year and most of the big names in poker agree.

The action of BB to fold and MP to all-in was rather swift. If this action is ruled a call, then what happens if SB fairly quickly protests but after MP goes AI? These are of course irrelevant if the original action is a raise.

To clarify: the physical action taken was that a single 100 chip was pulled back, the 3 other 100 chips were left in place without touching them, and then a single 5000 chip was tossed in. It looked like it could have been unintentional. I would not think however that intent is important, just the rule of the game.

It seems like there is some decent contention over exactly what should have happened and that this could use some official clarification.

Did anyone tweet Matt Savage?

Some have asked some questions/commented on the details surrounding MP/players and situations. I think they are somewhat irrelevant to this exact rule situation, but they are here if you wish to know:

https://twitter.com/SavagePoker/stat...86562378764288

The most pertinent ruling here is action offered and accepted. MP is absolutely a scummy player for trying to capitalize on a perceived mistake, then roll back his action when he loses. SB, in my opinion, lost the right to protest that he was calling if he let the BB fold without saying anything and didn't protest when dealer declared a raise.

My own opinion is that if he alters the chips in the middle, he is not putting out 1 oversized chip, but three chips for 5,300, but I know that this is not heavily supported by the rules.

Obviously this is ambiguous enough that if no one protested as the play went down, there are no valid protests after the fact. MP is absolutely scummy here and should be shamed appropriately

The most concerning thing here is that "dealer and floor had no idea". What did they have no idea about?

This should be allowed as a raise. I got to thinking about this and there would be no reason to rule it a call. The only way is if the dealer announced raise and SB immediately objected before anyone else acted.

Is it too late to edit my post to save face or...?

Didn't realize that chip manipulation has been a hot topic lately. I didn't see anything regarding it in TDA though maybe I looked at an out of date version? Is this currently in there or likely going in at the next summit?

Way to end the thread jigsaw

After MP complained, dealer called floor over, explained the situation, and said he wasn't sure what to do. Floor said that because of the significant action that the action stands (standard). As dealer was still questioning after, a couple minutes later the floor came back to clarify that it probably should have been a call.

Verdict: pull one chip back and put an oversize chip out = raise.

Looks like this is resolved, thanks Jigsaw & Matt!

For those people that think it's a call, what would they think if 2 chips were pulled back and a 5k chip thrown in?

That question doesn't matter anymore thanks to jigsaw

Sure, thank Jigsaw ... I said the same thing earlier.

In either case I want the dealer to get out in front of this if possible to clarify before additional action. Too late here ...

In the make-believe world of establishing intent there is no basis for making 'easy change' when 2 chips are pulled back here. Yes, it's a huge stretch but the silence of the bettor opens up that door when they pull back only 1 chip IMO. As per the Twitter ruling this is simply 'reduced' to being a multi-chip bet and that's fine with me as well. I'm only opening the call door when there could be an obvious alternate intent ... easy change. I'm all for reducing the mind reading required by dealer and Floor for sure.

Clearly we want a ruling that will 'work' regardless of the number of chips pulled back and that's what we have seen. The obvious exception being if all the chips were pulled back and a single-silent chip was tossed out ... call. GL