1/2 live cash. on the river one player bets 85 on a AKTJ5 no flush board. The other player calls. both throw their hands face up into the middle of the table, they are in the 1 and 3 seats and their hands fly into each other in the middle of the table so that no individual pair of cards is clear. the cards are QQKj all red. 1 seat claims he had QQ but 3 claims QJ. Obviously someone is lying, i'm petty sure its seat 3 because i've never seen him before, he looks like a sketchy guy in general, and he tanked for like 10-15 seconds before calling river which doesn't really make sense if he had a Q since its the nuts. Although to be fair some people do this just to make sure they have the nuts and sometimes think about a raise. also seat one is a reg who would never really pull this crap, betting the river with two pair or lying about his hand. However, although it seems obvious who is lying nobody can tell who actually had what because the card were thrown in so fast that all everyone saw was some red paint, which obviously is what every card is.

Whats to correct rulling here?

Split pot.

Why would it be anything else?

Its obvious to everyone at the table that V1 hand QQ and should get the whole pot but since the cards where flashed so fast across the table nobody got a clear look at them and the dealer can't tell for sure. this ended up being the result but bothered me that this guy got away with such a scummy move

Meh, you say that they BOTH threw their cards in the air and there's no proof who had what and you obv just don't like the 3 seat so calling him scummy's prob ill advised.

seat 1 is a reg and me and everyone else at the table are 99% sure he is telling the truth which means that seat 3 is probably lying to try and steal half the pot. Scummy.

So regs should get favorable rulings?

If this is in a casino, the floor could appeal to the eye in the sky. Review the video and see if a determination can be made. If so, and the liar is outed, they should get a trip to the casino's "discussion room", or banned for some time.

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If seat 3 is telling the truth, both players had the nuts. Why not even a single small raise on the end? I'm assuming rake is capped if the bet is $85, so raising on the end with the nuts is freerolling for profit.

If seat 1 is telling the truth, he had the nuts and seat 3 had middle two pair, which is more consistent with a bet and a (loose) call on the end.

However, it does matter who bet and who called. OP?

Of course, video footage would be very nice in this spot, but I'm sure there's some excuse not to look it up.

Weird situation.

Ignoring any editorializing on the fact that one is a reg and one is looks sketchy (most angleshooting posts in this forum are directed at regs btw).

The QQ failed to protect his hand by tabling it properly. The QJ did the same.

One of them may have misread their hand, and to be honest this must be the most likely scenario as for the "lying about hand" angleshoot to work you need to be super quick thinking and be able to face down any player at the table who is "sure" they saw one hand or the other as they collided like galaxies in the air, and be able to deal with the fallout if cameras are referred to.

So I'd split the pot, tell the reg he should know better than to table his hand so poorly. Politely educate the new player of the same point.

If video ... floor can perhaps clean this up, otherwise split pot ... and hopefully lesson learned by ... both?

Unfortunately I think the game must stop in order to 'force' the 2-pr player to pay the chips back since once the next hand starts it's over. If player refuses to pay 'back' the chips, then floor could ask him to leave room. Pretty sure this would be the case 'to the letter of the law' in most casinos. GL

One is a reg who somehow managed to find his tabled cards mixed with other tabled cards before anyone could read them, but you want to give him the whole pot.

lol no.

Given this, and your other posts in this thread, it is obvious you are biased as pointed out by others.

Correct ruling is split pot if it cannot be determined by unbiased means which cards belong to which players.

seat 1 bet and seat 3 called after 10-15 seconds

Perhaps seat 3 was thinking about if it was worth raising and decided against it?

This may be so, but in this sort of situation, you can perhaps reason out what's likely, but you can't really be 100% certain, and you can't properly use this sort of analysis to decide where to send the pot.
Split pot, warn both players to protect hands better in future. (If you want to mentally note Seat 3 as probable angler, go ahead).

lying or not, just table your cards neatly in front of you. By throwing them like that it opens up these kinds of things to happen. Lesson learned I'm sure.

Who bet and who called is irrelevant. If it were, you could have any two people at showdown mix their cards together and use the action to determine who had what.

If you're not Mel Gibson in Maverick, there's no excuse for throwing your cards around at showdown.

Split pot and a warning to both players for throwing cards.

Gotta agree. If Mr. QQ want a claim for pot, he has some obligation to protect his hand at showdown. You have to expect to run into angle shooters and cheats at the table. Protecting yourself is a basic concept for live poker.

Both players muck. Dealer wins.

Impound the pot. Call the camera.

If cards are readable, award as such.
If indeterminate, chop pot.

I wish there had been a 3rd player in with pocket deuces who called all the bets then held onto his cards, so we could ship him the pot.

Unless cameras can show something ( and likely they won't be clear) you have two careless players splitting a pot. What you think of someones style, morals , or even history make no difference in this particular instance.

This isn't the 40s anymore, but sure, this^^

Floor should take the pot and tell they players he is going to call surveillance. If surveillance can't tell the hands apart, then the pot will be awarded accordingly and the liar will be done for the night at minimum. Floor should then give each player one last chance to come clean before he calls surveillance... and if they do, award the pot and kick the guy out anyway. If surveillance can not tell the hands apart it's a split pot and both players are given a warning.


Also I have a feeling the s1 is either OP or a good friend of seat 1. I'm sorry but "Seat 3 looks scummy" does not mean we just assume he is lying.

Yep. This.

I can almost guarantee surveillance will be inconclusive. I have seen much easier rulings sent up there and they saw nothing.

They should hold the pot in the well and at least try it though. Someone should be perma banned.