Just realized this is probably the right forum for this, cant figure out how to delete the other...

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Im a decent player, not great but I usually win but only a few bb's per hour so im not turning pro any time soon.

This hand made me realize that I am playing a little too soft and not really betting properly.

I am 2nd to act at a full table of 1-3 nl. The table is ramming and jamming and i have taken a few flops and am down to 180 or so. Utg has me covered and looks at his cards and COMPLETELY exposes his cards to me. So much so that I thought he was showing them to me before he folded(which would been wierd). He then proceeds to raise to 10 with 57o. I am next to act and look down at K-9o. I raise to 25 hoping to isolate and to my shock, it works and he calls. Now my impression of him was already loose agressive and that is obvious now that he raised utg with this hand. Also, he is wearing a watch thats probably worth more than all the chips on the table.

Flop is 976 rainbow and i dont remember the suits but they dont come into play. He checks, I bet 20, thinking he might check raise me or I can just fold if he makes his hand. He calls.

Turn us a 3. He checks and I bet 20 again which is probably a mistake. All i saw was that he missed but realized later that he has a ton of outs. My main line of thinking was that I will know exactly where i am on the river and can make him crying call a small bet. Now, to be fair, I dont necessarily think i would play it this way if i hadnt seen his hand (assuming we would have magically been heads up because i would not have reraised him pre flop).

Well, the villain?? (Or am i the villain here? ) says, "don't know what that means". and check raises to 65. I think for a second and jam for about 70 more.

He calls and the river is a deuce. I shrug and show. He says, "Unfortunately, that is good."

Would appreciate thoughts about the ethics of the situation and more importantly the bet sizing.

I think the proper thing to do is to announce you saw his cards as soon as you saw them. Bet-sizing questions belong in another forum.

And make an enemy? The usual one warning the first time, imo. And I'm even sick of that after all of these years. I tell them, they show again anyway and the rest of the table doesn't even know why I announced a flashed-to-me hand.

I don't know, if I flashed my hand to someone, I would prefer they let me know ASAP then play the whole hand with my cards effectively face up. If they took advantage of me and I later found out, that's what would make me an enemy.

Looking back i could have easily just folded but what if i had had aces? Why do i have to fold or give up infotmation to the table because he didnt protect hs cards?

To be honest, i think what o realized is that im not thinking enough before i act and that is the hole in my game.

Variations on this situation are posted here all the time. The answers to your post will vary as they usually do. I would tell the guy that one time right after it happened before the hand played out. Often that is enough to keep him from doing it again. If it still continued, then frankly I would not tell him again. Others different opinions have merit too.

If multiple people saw them, announce it right away.

If only you saw them, and it was just a random occurrence, wait until your turn. If you fold, don't bother to say anything. If you call or raise, first announce to the table that you think you saw his hand. You do not need to further describe them, but you can if you wish.

If it's a systemic problem, like he doesn't know how to protect his hand while checking his cards, then you should at least give him the one time warning, and if he's a clueless newbie you should educate him a bit on how to do it right.

Not saying anything and free rolling the hand against him is wrong and unethical. If it had been anything other than heads up, you are also effectively cheating the other players too. Which is the other reason to announce it.

cool story bro

ethics? You pretty much cheated. What does that tell you about ethics? And I'm not going to comment on your bet sizing, it's not allowed in this forum anyway.

LOL That's just like saying "I stole his money, but he's rich, he can afford it so that makes it ok".

When people (especially the elderly crowd) expose their cards to me I politely whisper to them that they need to protect their hand. I do this not take away the possibility that I will use the information against them, I do it to protect them from other people like you.

Not cheating, he didn't break any rule. But highly unethical.

You have a hand that you would fold if you didn't see his cards and instead 3bet to isolate him. Not only do you 3bet, but you also use a bet sizing that makes sure he calls preflop so you can play the hand postflop with him.

Who said you had to fold?? I certainly didn't. Announcing you saw his cards doesn't mean you have to fold. But it's not fair for you to have information that other players don't have.

Life isn't fair. I don't see how using all available information is unethical. As long as he was just sitting there not trying to peek or anything, if another player doesn't protect his hand properly, how can he have done anything wrong? If I'm seated right next to a guy and I pick up a tell about how he nervously taps his foot when he's bluffing, I have a huge piece of information that other players on the table don't have. Am I obligated to announce to everyone every time he taps his foot?

Now, if he deliberately showed me his hand while I was still in the hand, the ethical thing would be show all.

Life isn't fair, but a poker game is supposed to be.

No, of course your not. But the way OP used the information to his favor was just short of him reaching in his pockets and pulling out all his money. then to come onto a public forum to brag about it, OP must feel really good about himself/herself. You have to draw a line somewhere.

So you are OK with two players showing their cards to each other preflop as long as they don't have to peak to see them?

Wasnt trying to brag, was really saying how this opened my eyes to how badly i play normally. If i announce i saw his hand then raise, i am giving off tons of info to others. I probably would have called normally.

You are right, i added that bit to make myself feel better. Im normally an honest person. Seemed to happen in a flash without thinking.

you should really quit while you're ahead.

On purpose? Of course not.

But as a poker player, my job is to be more observant than my opponents so as to collect more information which makes me more likely to play the hand correctly. If my opponents make mistakes that give me free information, I'm going to use that information, and I don't see any moral or ethical distinction between an obvious tell and being careless with protecting your hand.

As I said earlier opinions on this will vary. I believe you have an ethical responsibility to give at least one fair warning to a card flasher , but no more than that. You seem to feel no responsibilty for doing that. To me that is just doing what you think is right as an individual player, no judgement from me on you. I did notice you draw the line at intentionally trying to read the guys hand. I think that is a major distinction also.

I will tell him after the hand if I didn't play it. If he basically shows me his cards then he is killing a lot of my range if I do tell him right away so I don't see a reason to be taken advantage of and tell him I saw his kings when I have aces.

Or is anyone saying here that they would tell him they saw his cards when he has kings and then 3bet him without a pause?

At least this is a welcome statement. To acknowledge you were wrong and not get into a pissing match with those providing feedback is usually the way these things go.

Cut him some slack, he obviously plays cards for fun and is not a 'pro' like everyone else here. I 100% agree this was unethical and he should have spoken up about it and/or handled it differently. However, he came on here looking for advise and feedback about what happen, he got it, acknowledged it, and most likely will handle the situation different the next time. What more do you guys want?

Sure...and if you think this will make him fold, then balance it by having bluffs in your range as well.

Let me ask you something. If Bill Belicheck knew every play you were going to call, you think he would stop the game and tell the refs? I don't play for a living anymore so I would be honest/ethical and say something b/c I play for enjoyment and to relax. But don't expect anyone that is there to take your money for survival to exhibit the same ethics.

In our lives, we get to choose who we are going to be. Some people say that winners win, no matter what it takes, and that is commendable. Others say that winning without honor or ethics means nothing, and they would rather go without than succeed the wrong way.

No one can tell you who you should be, but the only thing you can do is be aware of what your actions say about your character. If you are down to your last dollar, and someone's money clip falls out of their pocket in front of you, do you take it or tell the person he dropped it?

By not saying anything, and exploiting the exposed card holder, you didn't break any rules, but you crossed over into that ethical boundary of winning the wrong way. If that is OK with you (and a lot of people see no problem with things like this, or angling, or soft play\collusion, or any of a dozen other ways to bend the rules without breaking them), that is fine. Just be aware of who and what you are.

I hate belichek. i think he is a scumbag. But he is a winner. To some, that is all that matters.

It is a grey line. But there are things that are within the boundaries of normal poker activity (like reading tells and observing behavior patterns) and things outside (like seeing someone's cards if they aren't protecting them well). You can argue that they are functionally the same thing, both cases of a careless player giving away information. But one is part of poker, the other is not. Just like table talk is acceptable but angling is not, there is a boundary.